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#1
04-01-2012, 11:55 AM
 grammatically_uncorrect Senior Member VEX # 4405a Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 135 Images: 1
strategy fun...

At Nationals, I noticed that most (if not all) teams in the high school division raced to fill their 30 inch goals or fill the center 30 inch goal as fast as possible, with about half of the teams ignoring the 20 inch goals and almost all of them ignoring the 11.5 inch goals until later in the match.

The question is this:

Why does everyone seem to want to do this if they can score more points with the same number of objects if they score first in the lower goals? Obviously, one can double a 30 inch goal for more points, but the way I see it, one has to be really careful placing the doubler and half the time the points are cancelled out by the negation barrel.

(for this reason, I understand the use of the isolation 30 inch goals, but the immediate filling of the center goal still goes over my non-strategy oriented head)
#2
04-01-2012, 12:02 PM
 RoboDesigners Senior Member VEX # 2190 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 1,024 Images: 1
Re: strategy fun...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by grammatically_uncorrect Why does everyone seem to want to do this if they can score more points with the same number of objects if they score first in the lower goals? Obviously, one can double a 30 inch goal for more points, but the way I see it, one has to be really careful placing the doubler and half the time the points are cancelled out by the negation barrel. (for this reason, I understand the use of the isolation 30 inch goals, but the immediate filling of the center goal still goes over my non-strategy oriented head)
Let's go through a scenario: (interaction zone)
1. Red fills center goal first with 6 objects.
2. Blue robot fills its 11.5" goal first in autonomous
3. Now Blue cannot get the 30" goal points, as it's already full. Crossing over to the 11.5" goal is difficult if not impossible in autonomous.
4. Red picks up two objects from the pyramid, and scores in the 11.5" goal by its side.
5. Now Blue only has 3pts in the interaction zone, and Red has 10pts.

See why the center goal is contested? It's the "asymmetric" goal. Every other goal can be easily won by the alliance on that side, and cancels out the other alliance's score in that goal.

//Andrew
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#3
04-01-2012, 12:10 PM
 grammatically_uncorrect Senior Member VEX # 4405a Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 135 Images: 1
Re: strategy fun...

So, if I understand it correctly, it's more like the "clean sweep scoring concept," in which you not only score points, the other team loses points, effectively doubling the difference in score.

Last edited by grammatically_uncorrect; 04-01-2012 at 12:12 PM. Reason: it was grammatically uncorrect
#4
04-01-2012, 05:43 PM
 murdomeek Senior Member VEX # 1107B Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,127 Images: 8
Re: strategy fun...

u watch these vids yet?
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#5
04-01-2012, 06:00 PM
 Vex Mundi Senior Member VEX # AURA Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 444 Images: 1
Re: strategy fun...

RoboDesigners is right: Bonus points, and points in general, don't need to be got early if you know you can get them later.

The ones you should be getting early are the ones you have to fight for: the centre 30" goal and the two 20" goals. If you have an opportunity to score in your opponents' 11.5" interaction or 30" isolation then these should also be a much higher priority than filling your 'safe' goals.

Because there is no descoring in Gateway, average scoring rate is much less important than it was in Round Up or Clean Sweep. The game is about who can protect the goals in their territory while scoring as much as possible in opposing and neutral territory.

This doesn't fully explain what you saw at nationals:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by grammatically_uncorrect half of the teams ignoring the 20 inch goals
These guys were just doing strategy wrong, pretty much. This might work (and might even be a good strategy) if you are a slow team playing against other slow teams, but it won't work when the teams are good.
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#6
04-01-2012, 10:21 PM
 chris Member VEX # 254E Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 56
Re: strategy fun...

To extend other people's points, when we did some scrimmages against some of our other teams, we would always start in the isolation zone, while they started in the interaction. They always won, because they filled up those first, and then went deeper into their territory.
#7
04-02-2012, 06:27 AM
 Jesse323Z Senior Member VEX # 323Z Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,215 Images: 12
Re: strategy fun...

Quote:
 To extend other people's points, when we did some scrimmages against some of our other teams, we would always start in the isolation zone, while they started in the interaction. They always won, because they filled up those first, and then went deeper into their territory.
We also found that out.

When we scrimmaged with our teams, we would always start in the interaction and in the first 5-10 sec we filled up the center 30". If you get that filled, and your isolation 30", double one, and protect the other, you have a good chance of winning.

At US Nationals my team started in the Interaction every match. 5/7 matches we played we either scored 6 objects in autonomous in the center 30", or got the robot directly over the center 30" to score in Driver Control. The other two times we had our robot drive into the center stack to block the other interaction bot from scoring in the 30".
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Last edited by Jesse323Z; 04-02-2012 at 06:28 AM. Reason: Added information.
#8
04-02-2012, 11:06 PM
 meng Senior Member VEX # 8059 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Singapore Posts: 183
Re: strategy fun...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RoboDesigners 3. Now Blue cannot get the 30" goal points, as it's already full. Crossing over to the 11.5" goal is difficult if not impossible in autonomous. //Andrew
hmm... i think it is illegal to break the plane of the opponent's starting tile during autonomous.... else you will lose your doubler and negator.

but this only emphasize on the importance of the centre 30" goal
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#9
04-03-2012, 05:05 AM
 Jesse323Z Senior Member VEX # 323Z Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,215 Images: 12
Re: strategy fun...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by meng hmm... i think it is illegal to break the plane of the opponent's starting tile during autonomous.... else you will lose your doubler and negator.
You are correct. Refer to <SG10>
Quote:
 Robots are not permitted to break the plane of their opponents Alliance Starting Tile during the Autonomous Period. Violations of this rule will result in the offending Alliance losing their Doubler Barrel and Negation Barrel.
I found this happening a lot at Nationals. At least in the Middle School division. Multiple matches, robots where hitting the center stack, and then getting off track and touching the opponents starting tile. I saw this happen in three matches.
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#10
04-03-2012, 09:39 AM
 RoboDesigners Senior Member VEX # 2190 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 1,024 Images: 1
Re: strategy fun...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by meng hmm... i think it is illegal to break the plane of the opponent's starting tile during autonomous.... else you will lose your doubler and negator. but this only emphasize on the importance of the centre 30" goal
Correct. That's why I say it's difficult if not impossible. A carefully driven robot with no obstacles in the way can make it from one starting tile to the far 11.5" goal without crossing the plane of the opp starting tile.

//Andrew
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