4 motor HS vs 6 motor turbo drive base

  1. 7 months ago

    Leifis

    15 Jan 2018 Mankato MN 9457B

    Which is better and why?

    @8232X I like the 6 motor drive, because honestly if you need 4 motors to move a 0.25lb cone, plus more to internally stack it, you are wasting motors. Making a lift light enough to use only 2 motors is not super hard, and will be faster because it is lighter. Having 6 on drive make outplaying defense bots a possibility, and makes skills so much easier. Sure 100+ is doable on 4HS, but is way easier on 6 turbo with enough practice.

    Just my 2 cents.

    I understand your points, but let me throw a bit of critique, eh?

    1.) More motors == faster ratio == Faster stacking. The fastest ratio you can do with 2 motors is 1:7 turbo (1:2.92). with 4 motors the fastest is technically 1:1, but I'll say 1:5 turbo (1:2.083) because it's more common.

    2.) Making a lift lighter is fine, however that still does not change the fact that more motors means moar power. Cycle time increases, which leads to higher stacks.

    3.) I don't really understand this point. 6 motor turbo has a lower stall torque than 4 motor HS if I remember correctly *Correction due to Bryan. They have roughly the same amount of torque

    4.) Can't really argue with this point. Skills is a >=6 motor drive sport.

  2. In my opinion, 4 motor HS is better for ITZ. 6 motor is faster, but in ITZ you don't have to race across the field to get to a cone/mogo, there isn't that much of a rush. With a 4 motor, you can allocate more motors to your lift, which (in my opinion) is far more important, especially if your robot internally stacks.

  3. Dokkaebi

    15 Jan 2018 Deal with it I like chocolate

    @avspark In my opinion, 4 motor HS is better for ITZ. 6 motor is faster, but in ITZ you don't have to race across the field to get to a cone/mogo, there isn't that much of a rush. With a 4 motor, you can allocate more motors to your lift, which (in my opinion) is far more important, especially if your robot internally stacks.

    Yup. Acceleration is 100% better than high top speed, you also get the added benefit of 2 extra motors for your robot.

  4. For skills, autonomous, and any defense, 6 motor drive has a distinct advantage.

  5. Easton

    15 Jan 2018 GA, USA 1958A

    @Rod For skills, autonomous, and any defense, 6 motor drive has a distinct advantage.

    True, however the defense part of that isn't true with a 6M turbo drive, those don't have much of a pushing advantage over 4M HS. 6M HS has a pushing advantage, but then again ITZ is an offensive game and so I think 4M HS is the best

  6. @Easton True, a 6m turbo has no advantage in a pushing battle, but with enough practice driving, we can outrun/outmaneuver defensive attempts a lot better than a 4m speed.
    Also, my 6m turbo has saved me during auto because I can block anyone's mogo autonomous if I line up my defensive auto correctly.
    Lastly, a 6m speed does have a speed advantage over a 4m speed, can easily push around any non-defensive robot, and won't trip.

    Sure, a 4m drive robot can stack faster b/c it allows for a 4m lift, but cycle time isn't everything. A good robot is well rounded, not just ultrafast at stacking from the loader and little else. A 6m drive just leads to a much more well rounded robot.

  7. Mystellianne

    15 Jan 2018 Miami, Florida 4411S
    Edited 7 months ago by Mystellianne

    You’ll save more time getting to cones faster than stacking faster. For that reason, plus skills, plus defense, plus less stalling, 6 motor drive all the way.

  8. 8232X

    15 Jan 2018 NH 8232X

    I like the 6 motor drive, because honestly if you need 4 motors to move a 0.25lb cone, plus more to internally stack it, you are wasting motors. Making a lift light enough to use only 2 motors is not super hard, and will be faster because it is lighter. Having 6 on drive make outplaying defense bots a possibility, and makes skills so much easier. Sure 100+ is doable on 4HS, but is way easier on 6 turbo with enough practice.

    Just my 2 cents.

  9. NightsRosario

    15 Jan 2018 Answer Reisterstown/Catonsville, MD 3922A
    Edited 7 months ago by NightsRosario

    @8232X I like the 6 motor drive, because honestly if you need 4 motors to move a 0.25lb cone, plus more to internally stack it, you are wasting motors. Making a lift light enough to use only 2 motors is not super hard, and will be faster because it is lighter. Having 6 on drive make outplaying defense bots a possibility, and makes skills so much easier. Sure 100+ is doable on 4HS, but is way easier on 6 turbo with enough practice.

    Just my 2 cents.

    I understand your points, but let me throw a bit of critique, eh?

    1.) More motors == faster ratio == Faster stacking. The fastest ratio you can do with 2 motors is 1:7 turbo (1:2.92). with 4 motors the fastest is technically 1:1, but I'll say 1:5 turbo (1:2.083) because it's more common.

    2.) Making a lift lighter is fine, however that still does not change the fact that more motors means moar power. Cycle time increases, which leads to higher stacks.

    3.) I don't really understand this point. 6 motor turbo has a lower stall torque than 4 motor HS if I remember correctly *Correction due to Bryan. They have roughly the same amount of torque

    4.) Can't really argue with this point. Skills is a >=6 motor drive sport.

  10. @NightsRosario 3.) I don't really understand this point. 6 motor turbo has a lower stall torque than 4 motor HS if I remember correctly

    Their stall torques are pretty much identical:
    4 Speed: (1.04Nm)(4 motors) = 4.16 Nm
    6 Turbo: (0.7Nm)(6 motors) = 4.20 Nm

    Another big advantage is it's a lot easier to drive around, dodge, or outrun defensive bots with a 6m.

  11. NightsRosario

    15 Jan 2018 Reisterstown/Catonsville, MD 3922A

    @Rod Their stall torques are pretty much identical:
    4 Speed: (1.04Nm)(4 motors) = 4.16 Nm
    6 Turbo: (0.7Nm)(6 motors) = 4.20 Nm

    Another big advantage is it's a lot easier to drive around, dodge, or outrun defensive bots with a 6m.

    But then you end up cycling slower than other teams due to their lifts being faster.
    (Side note: Defense will be dead by Worlds :) )

  12. Bryan R

    15 Jan 2018 Hereford, Maryland, USA 929X

    4 motor speed and 6 motor turbo have the same amount of torque. Also, the best ratios for lifts depend on how long the bars are, and the ratios nightrosario is talking about are slower than using speed motors with those gear ratios unless the motors arent being lifted and the arms are 25 holes or shorter

  13. NightsRosario

    15 Jan 2018 Reisterstown/Catonsville, MD 3922A
    Edited 7 months ago by NightsRosario

    @Bryan R 4 motor speed and 6 motor turbo have the same amount of torque. Also, the best ratios for lifts depend on how long the bars are, and the ratios nightrosario is talking about are slower than using speed motors with those gear ratios unless the motors arent being lifted and the arms are 25 holes or shorter

    Gdi Bryan. Always ruining the fun. Also, not necessarily on the arm part. That's if you can accelerate fast enough

  14. 8232X

    15 Jan 2018 NH 8232X

    @NightsRosario Very true, a 4m 1:5 turbo lift would be faster, no doubt. For us though, NH is pretty a competitive region, so winning states to make it to worlds is not easy. Thats why we are aiming for skills, hence the 6 turbo drive.

  15. @NightsRosario But then you end up cycling slower than other teams due to their lifts being faster.
    (Side note: Defense will be dead by Worlds :) )

    Not that much slower. Cycle time depends on more than your main lift speed. Granted, a faster main lift will mean a faster cycle when stacking off of the loader and when stacking very high, but otherwise the advantage is minimal. 4 bar speed (which has converged to 2m), intake speed, and lining up the next cone limits cycle speed more at lower stack heights. And like @8232X said, a lift does not need to move that much weight. With good build quality, properly balanced elastics, and good design, the advantage of an extra 2 motors will be nearly negligible.

    Motor allocation is about weighing advantages and disadvantages. True, a 4 motor lift will mean a slightly faster cycle in certain, limited circumstances. But a 6 motor drive means a higher skills score, a more stall-resistant robot, more capabilities to disrupt autonomous, ability to play defense or play easier against defensive robots, less time to line up a cone, more maneuverable, etc. Honestly, I think it's a no-brainer.

    (Side Note: I hope so, but I'd hate to be dead in the water because some pushbot with a good driver bumped into me.)

  16. NightsRosario

    15 Jan 2018 Reisterstown/Catonsville, MD 3922A
    Edited 7 months ago by NightsRosario

    @Rod Not that much slower. Cycle time depends on more than your main lift speed. Granted, a faster main lift will mean a faster cycle when stacking off of the loader and when stacking very high, but otherwise the advantage is minimal. 4 bar speed (which has converged to 2m), intake speed, and lining up the next cone limits cycle speed more at lower stack heights. And like @8232X said, a lift does not need to move that much weight. With good build quality, properly balanced elastics, and good design, the advantage of an extra 2 motors will be nearly negligible.

    Motor allocation is about weighing advantages and disadvantages. True, a 4 motor lift will mean a slightly faster cycle in certain, limited circumstances. But a 6 motor drive means a higher skills score, a more stall-resistant robot, more capabilities to disrupt autonomous, ability to play defense or play easier against defensive robots, less time to line up a cone, more maneuverable, etc. Honestly, I think it's a no-brainer.

    (Side Note: I hope so, but I'd hate to be dead in the water because some pushbot with a good driver bumped into me.)

    Lol, This is seeming to be an argument, so I'm just gonna say my last rebuttal here.

    1.) If you see the general trend of things, people are starting to make larger loads faster. 202, 1970K, 8675, and many other teams are now making 1-2 stacks of 11-13 a match. From personal experience, say you have a 2 motor lift and a 4 motor lift where the 4 motor lift is on a faster ratio. The difference is noticeable after ~7 cones. The difference in speed will most certainly affect the next 4-6 cones. Also, 4-bar speed should not come into play in this argument. I'm assuming that everyone has a ratio that's ~1:1. 1 motor or 2 motors really doesn't matter. Same with intake speed. Not really a factor in this argument

    2.) The matter is not about the weight of the things you are lifting but rather how fast you lift said objects. The "advantage of 2 motors" that you say will be "nearly negligible" is the ability to go to a faster ratio. While acceleration is still a thing, it should still be faster.

    3.) the advantages are not in limited circumstances but rather overall through the tourney. The only reason I see to still have a 6 motor turbo drive base is speed and that isn't even necessary for a drive in this game. Also, referencing my side note, defense will be dead by Worlds, so that takes care of the remaining rebuttals.

    Side Note: Bryan, please don't make me write another post on this subject. We can argue on out own time

  17. @NightsRosario Lol, This is seeming to be an argument, so I'm just gonna say my last rebuttal here.

    1.) If you see the general trend of things, people are starting to make larger loads faster. 202, 1970K, 8675, and many other teams are now making 1-2 stacks of 11-13 a match. From personal experience, say you have a 2 motor lift and a 4 motor lift where the 4 motor lift is on a faster ratio. The difference is noticeable after ~7 cones. The difference in speed will most certainly affect the next 4-6 cones. Also, 4-bar speed should not come into play in this argument. I'm assuming that everyone has a ratio that's ~1:1. 1 motor or 2 motors really doesn't matter. Same with intake speed. Not really a factor in this argument

    2.) The matter is not about the weight of the things you are lifting but rather how fast you lift said objects. The "advantage of 2 motors" that you say will be "nearly negligible" is the ability to go to a faster ratio. While acceleration is still a thing, it should still be faster.

    3.) the advantages are not in limited circumstances but rather overall through the tourney. The only reason I see to still have a 6 motor turbo drive base is speed and that isn't even necessary for a drive in this game. Also, referencing my side note, defense will be dead by Worlds, so that takes care of the remaining rebuttals.

    Side Note: Bryan, please don't make me write another post on this subject. We can argue on out own time

    I mean this is a thread about this exact topic, so I think debate and discussion is good.

    I definitely see your point, and I really think it depends on what the driver is able to best take advantage of and how the team chooses to play each match. For example, when stacking from the loader, a 4m lift is the clear winner. For being more active on the field, a 6m drive has the advantage. For those listening in at home, consider how you plan to use your robot, and allocate motors accordingly.

    My driver is great at taking advantage of the drive base, and noticeably less good at stacking consistently, so I've tried to tailor my robot to his strengths. Also, stalling is super annoying.

    I really disagree about defense, though. It's a very useful tool in any match, and I've seen it used to turn the tide in matches where one side seemed a lot better than the other. Also, defense bots are great for skills, arguably the easiest way to worlds, and are easy to build. I don't like it, but I think there will be a lot of defense bots at worlds.

  18. Avery_8675A

    15 Jan 2018 Valley, NE XD
    Edited 7 months ago by Avery_8675A

    @NightsRosario Lol, This is seeming to be an argument, so I'm just gonna say my last rebuttal here.

    1.) If you see the general trend of things, people are starting to make larger loads faster. 202, 1970K, 8675, and many other teams are now making 1-2 stacks of 11-13 a match. From personal experience, say you have a 2 motor lift and a 4 motor lift where the 4 motor lift is on a faster ratio. The difference is noticeable after ~7 cones. The difference in speed will most certainly affect the next 4-6 cones. Also, 4-bar speed should not come into play in this argument. I'm assuming that everyone has a ratio that's ~1:1. 1 motor or 2 motors really doesn't matter. Same with intake speed. Not really a factor in this argument

    2.) The matter is not about the weight of the things you are lifting but rather how fast you lift said objects. The "advantage of 2 motors" that you say will be "nearly negligible" is the ability to go to a faster ratio. While acceleration is still a thing, it should still be faster.

    3.) the advantages are not in limited circumstances but rather overall through the tourney. The only reason I see to still have a 6 motor turbo drive base is speed and that isn't even necessary for a drive in this game. Also, referencing my side note, defense will be dead by Worlds, so that takes care of the remaining rebuttals.

    Side Note: Bryan, please don't make me write another post on this subject. We can argue on out own time

    We have a two motor lift and six motor turbo base and can stack just about as fast as 1970K. We have stacked more cones than them in matches against them multiple times due to the base being able to line up to cones faster.

  19. MayorMonty

    16 Jan 2018 Greenville, SC 3796B

    Unless you're stacking from the loader, the single longest action is going to be driving to a cone on the field. Once you have the cone in your grasp, and assuming you have autonomous functions correctly programmed, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to stack, as long as you've done it in the time it takes to drive to the next cone, give or take

    However, if your strategy is about stacking from the loader, then you should probably focus on having a fast lift, because driving doesn't matter in that situation

  20. Carter

    16 Jan 2018 Alabama 13907A

    I would go with a 6 motor high speed drive and 2 motor 1:5 hs lift. The high speed drive greatly reduces the chance of stalling and the stacking time difference is negligible. As stated in a previous thread, the lift doesn't have to rotate very far and therefore the hs motor is almost the exact speed of the turbo motor.

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