1. 3 months ago

    action000

    Feb 12 Event Partner

    I think everyone is aware that the Programming Skills is the first tiebreaker for the Skills rankings. However, what are the rest?

    My guess was 1) Score 2) Programming Score 3) Highest Programming Score, 4) Highest Driver Score, 5) Timestamp - first in wins.

    I'm not sure about #3 and #4, but I do know that #5 is not correct. You'd think this would be published somewhere, but I can't find it. Anyone know?

  2. Ethan W.

    Feb 12 99402D

    straight out of the skills manual,

    • For each Skills Match teams are awarded a score based on the above scoring rules.
    • Teams will be ranked based on the sum of their highest Programming Skills Match score and
    Driver Skills Match score, with the team with the highest sum being declared the Robot Skills
    Challenge Winner.
    vexrobotics.com
    Copyright 2017, VEX Robotics Inc.
    2017-08-17
    • In the case where two teams are tied for the highest score, the tie will be broken by looking
    at both teams’ next highest Programming Skills Match score. If the teams remain tied, the tie
    will be broken by looking at both teams’ next highest Driver Skills Match score. This process
    will repeat until the tie is broken.
    • If the tie cannot be broken (i.e. both teams have the exact same scores for each
    Programming Skills Match and Driver Skills Match), then the following ordered criteria will be
    used to determine which team had the “best” Programming Skills Match.

    1. Number of points for Mobile Goals in 20 Point Zones.
    2. Number of points for Mobile Goals in 10 Point Zones.
    3. Number of points for Mobile Goals in 5 Point Zones.
    4. Number of points for Stacked Cones.

    • If the tie still cannot be broken, the same process in the step above will be applied to the
    teams' best Driver Skills Match.
    • If the tie still isn’t broken, events may choose to allow teams to have one more deciding
    match or both teams will be declared the winner.

  3. action000

    Feb 12 Event Partner
    Edited 3 months ago by action000

    @Ethan W. My understanding is that is for an event, not for the Skills Rankings. That is used to determine who would win an award at an event. What are the tiebreakers in the World Skills Rankings when the of the scores are exactly the same across the board?

    See example ... why is 244B ahead of 3767A? Why is 248G ahead of 288G? They had the exact same number of goals in the same zones, etc.

  4. action000

    Feb 12 Event Partner

    And IF this part is correct: "In the case where two teams are tied for the highest score, the tie will be broken by looking at both teams’ next highest Programming Skills Match score. If the teams remain tied, the tie
    will be broken by looking at both teams’ next highest Driver Skills Match score. This process
    will repeat until the tie is broken." than the Skills rankings that I showed is NOT correct. 288G has multiple programming skills scores of 52 whereas 248G has only done it once.

    (I'm a mentor for both teams, so I'm very familiar with them ... even 248G was surprised to see them ranked ahead of 288G).

  5. Doug Moyers

    Feb 12 Austin, TX 8756 - Mentor

    Clearly the tie breaker is the team number.

  6. [deleted]

    Feb 12
    Deleted 3 months ago by DRow
  7. action000

    Feb 12 Event Partner

    @Doug Moyers Clearly the tie breaker is the team number.

    As crazy as it may seem, I was thinking that you may be right. But then 7700S is ranked above 315G.

    The only thing that i can think of is that it isn't going by the 2nd best Prog Skills, then 2nd best Robot Skills, etc. like the rules say but is going by the 2nd best Robot Skills score - which would be really bad because that isn't what the rules say and isn't documented anywhere. That could/would influence what teams do.

  8. A tie breaker can also be determined by which team took the fewest attempts to achieve their score.
    For example, Team A takes 1 attempt to complete driver skills and 1 attempt to complete programming skills, while Team B takes 2 attempts to complete driver skills and 2 attempts to complete programming skills to achieve the same score. This would mean that Team A's robot was more efficient and therefore they should be ranked higher. (Just a suggestion).

  9. action000

    Feb 13 Event Partner

    @CraftBro A tie breaker can also be determined by which team took the fewest attempts to achieve their score.
    For example, Team A takes 1 attempt to complete driver skills and 1 attempt to complete programming skills, while Team B takes 2 attempts to complete driver skills and 2 attempts to complete programming skills to achieve the same score. This would mean that Team A's robot was more efficient and therefore they should be ranked higher. (Just a suggestion).

    Eh. I don't like that at all. It could/would discourage a team from trying to get better.

  10. 2 months ago

    action000

    Feb 26 Event Partner

    It's very interesting that no one seems to know the answer to this.

  11. meng

    Feb 26 Singapore 8059

    @action000 It's very interesting that no one seems to know the answer to this.

    Thought @Ethan W. has already gave the answer? No?

  12. action000

    Feb 26 Event Partner

    @meng In the case where two teams are tied for the highest score, the tie will be broken by looking
    at both teams’ next highest Programming Skills Match score.

    No. First, that appears to me to be the tiebreaker at an event ... not the tiebreaker in the World Skills Rankings list. But let's assume that it is ...

    In the example that I gave ... there are two teams tied in the skills rankings (both teams that I mentor) 248G and 288G. They have the exact same skills skills numbers across the board (144, 52, 92, 52, 92). By the manual, that would go to "In the case where two teams are tied for the highest score, the tie will be broken by looking at both teams’ next highest Programming Skills Match score."

    I know for a fact that 288G has put up a 52 in programming at two separate events. 248G only got to 52 once at their last event. Their previous high score was 42.

    There is something else, and something else different that is breaking the ties on the World Skills Rankings.

  13. meng

    Feb 26 Singapore 8059
    Edited 2 months ago by meng

    For the world ranking, asumming that both teams have exactly the same driver and programming skills scores, then they will look at the teams’ 2nd highest robot skills scores obtained in another event.

    So what was 288G and 248G 2nd highest robot skills scores in a separate event?
    Hopefully it tallies now...

  14. action000

    Feb 26 Event Partner
    Edited 2 months ago by action000

    @meng For the world ranking, asumming that both teams have exactly the same driver and programming skills scores, then they will look at the teams’ 2nd highest robot skills scores obtained in another event.

    So what was 288G and 248G 2nd highest robot skills scores in a separate event?
    Hopefully it tallies now...

    OK, that is the ONLY thing that makes since ... and has been my suspicion, and fear. Yes, 248G's 2nd highest robot skills score is higher than 288Gs - but here is the problem with using that as an unpublished tiebreaker like that:

    I watched this happen (both were in the same skills event last). 288G just cannot get over a 92 driver. They have scored a 62 programming in practice though. They tried to get the 62, but couldn't ended up with another 52. They decided that instead of driving and putting up another 92 - for another 144 (which they thought was useless - because no one knows the tiebreaker) - they would work on trying to fix that programming for the next event. IF they, or anyone, would have known that the 2nd best robot skills score is actually used as the tiebreaker, they certainly would have taken the time to drive once before they worked on the programming. Not having the tiebreakers published changed what the kids would have done.

  15. action000

    Feb 26 Event Partner

    FYI ... if this is indeed the tiebreaker (do you know this? or are you guessing like me?), I think they should change it. I think teams should strive to be better and not just put up the same numbers as they had before.

    I'm not sure what the best tiebreaker is. I kind of like the "first one there is on top and anyone else that wants be ranked ahead of them has to beat them" idea.

  16. meng

    Feb 26 Singapore 8059

    @action000 FYI ... if this is indeed the tiebreaker (do you know this? or are you guessing like me?), I think they should change it. I think teams should strive to be better and not just put up the same numbers as they had before.

    I'm not sure what the best tiebreaker is. I kind of like the "first one there is on top and anyone else that wants be ranked ahead of them has to beat them" idea.

    These are some of the threads talking about it....

    https://www.vexforum.com/index.php/13762-answered-skills-rankings-tie/0

    https://www.vexforum.com/index.php/18282-skills-rankings/0

    The first thread that I have listed is answered by Karthik - it is considered as official. But of course it was so long ago, things might have changed.

  17. TriDragon

    Feb 26 Tampa, FL 6430 - Mentor
    Edited 2 months ago by TriDragon

    @meng, but those answers were before skills were additive, programming and driver where separate then.

  18. meng

    Feb 26 Singapore 8059

    @TriDragon @meng, but those answers were before skills were additive, programming and driver where separate then.

    Yup... Agree.
    That’s the reason why I said it was a Long time ago.

    And Guess what, I just found another thread that is more recent, but going by a different rules!!

    https://www.vexforum.com/index.php/25507-answered-world-skills-standings-tie-breakers/0

    Guess someone just need to put it into the official q&a.

 

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