62 Qualification Outrage

  1. 6 months ago

    At the SoCal state tournament, team 62A was on an alliance that got to the semifinals. It was posted on robotevents and in many documents from vex and the RECF that all tournament semifinalists qualify to worlds. Then, it was ruled that 62 played illegal defense, resulting in a DQ from semi finals 1-3. However, Tarek and the event managers explicitly stated every team in that semi finals match would be given a worlds invite and that 62 was only disqualified from that particular match, which was completely consistent with the information everywhere else. Nowhere were any complete event disqualifications even mentioned. Despite this, the RECF has unilaterally decided 62 did not qualify to worlds and has not issued them a worlds qualification spot or recognized them as a semifinalist on robotevents.com. They have not provided any reason for this decision and it goes against the event details they themselves published.

    This raises a legitimate question about whether the California RECF can be trusted. This is the second incident of underhandedness from the RECF in just a few weeks, and there are whispers of teams or entire organizations quitting vex. I hope it doesn’t come to this, but it may if the RECF can’t get their act together.

    VEX Robotics Community,

    I have completed my investigation into the disqualification of 62A from the 2018 VEX Robotics World Championship after the 2018 Southern California VEX Robotics State Championship had concluded. I understand why this decision was made and there is a lot of information not disclosed on the forums that led to this ruling. However, the DQ from VEX Worlds is not in line with our written rules. After receiving a formal appeal the Harvard Westlake School, talking to many parties involved and reviewing with the GDC, we are reversing the disqualification and will immediately send an invitation to 62A to compete at the World Championship.

    This entire process has identified some gray areas in the REC Foundation and VEX GDC rules and procedures. I will be working very closely with my staff, VEX Robotics and the GDC to improve the wording in the rules for next season. I believe this will ensure that all rules are enforced as intended and that many of the issues brought forward this season will be clarified.

    Thank you for your patience during this process.

    Dan Mantz
    CEO
    REC Foundation

  2. Deleted 6 months ago by Karthik
  3. Aponthis

    28 Feb 2018 Tempe, Arizona Formerly 127A, 127C, 127X

    If a team was disqualified during a semifinal match only, but semifinalist qualifies for Worlds, then they should absolutely qualify for Worlds, as per the rules. I can't comment on anything else, however.

  4. Deleted 6 months ago by Fitch J. (8000)
  5. meng

    28 Feb 2018 Singapore 8059

    I suggest that the team look for the region rep to check out the reason behind this decision.

    And of course, maybe the OP can post this in the official thread and hopefully we will get an official answer.

    I would love to see them again at worlds, especially if they truly deserved to go there.

  6. Deleted 6 months ago by Andrew Chang
  7. Karthik

    28 Feb 2018 Administrator Toronto, ON, Canada

    I accidentally un-deleted a user-deleted post in this thread. I have re-deleted it. My bad.

  8. During eliminations there is no team DQ possible. Only complete alliance DQ even if only 1 team causes an infraction.

    Only possibly explanation, going by the written rules at least, is an event DQ for team 62A. That seems unlikely however since 62A is listed as the robot skills winner.

    Disclaimer: I know nothing of the event in question.

  9. @NiMH During eliminations there is no team DQ possible. Only complete alliance DQ even if only 1 team causes an infraction.

    Only possibly explanation, going by the written rules at least, is an event DQ for team 62A. That seems unlikely however since 62A is listed as the robot skills winner.

    Disclaimer: I know nothing of the event in question.

    If they won the robot skills award even if they were denied a worlds spot through the tournament they should still have received a world spot for robot skills right?

  10. Vex 9185

    28 Feb 2018 Bellefontaine, Ohio

    @JuiceBox If they won the robot skills award even if they were denied a worlds spot through the tournament they should still have received a world spot for robot skills right?

    I think that competition had 14 spots, which means, robot skills winner doesn't qualify. (In my opinion, spot allocation for 13 spots is lot fairer since robot skills winner does qualify, but that doesn't really relate to this thread.)

    Is 6007X in the same situation as well? I saw that they didn't get a semifinalists award either.

  11. Aponthis

    28 Feb 2018 Tempe, Arizona Formerly 127A, 127C, 127X

    @Vex 9185 Is 6007X in the same situation as well? I saw that they didn't get a semifinalists award either

    Yes, but apparently they were DQ'd from the whole event.

  12. meng

    28 Feb 2018 Singapore 8059

    @Aponthis Yes, but apparently they were DQ'd from the whole event.

    The question is - what happened or what did they do during the match that required such drastic action?
    Especially if they had not been DQ at all before the SF.

    The referee or the EP should clarify what happened so that it can be a learning point for everybody.

  13. Aponthis

    28 Feb 2018 Tempe, Arizona Formerly 127A, 127C, 127X

    @meng The question is - what happened or what did they do during the match that required such drastic action?
    Especially if they had not been DQ at all before the SF.

    The referee or the EP should clarify what happened so that it can be a learning point for everybody.

    I heard that it was for drilling into their pneumatic tanks for mounting. Can't modify pneumatic tanks. So it was an issue with their robot.

  14. meng

    28 Feb 2018 Singapore 8059

    @Aponthis I heard that it was for drilling into their pneumatic tanks for mounting. Can't modify pneumatic tanks. So it was an issue with their robot.

    Shouldn’t this be picked up during inspection?

  15. Aponthis

    28 Feb 2018 Tempe, Arizona Formerly 127A, 127C, 127X

    @meng Shouldn’t this be picked up during inspection?

    Ideally, yes. Bear in mind that I don't even live in California, so I can't say too much about what happened. But apparently, it wasn't.

  16. OscarMNOVA12

    28 Feb 2018 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Northern VA and Pittsburgh MASON, 12, 22172

    There are times I wish there was more transparency in these sorts of decisions for the teams involved. Like why an event wide DQ was made and such.

  17. [TVA]Connor

    28 Feb 2018 South Texas 1814D
    Edited 6 months ago by [TVA]Connor

    For 6007: The first question I would ask, if I were a referee, is would the modification be match affecting. Did the modification of drilling holes change the outcome of any match, as well as did the event give a warning before disqualifying 6007 from the event?
    For 62: If a competition offers a reward for a certain accomplishment, and if the accomplishment is reached fair and square but the competition is not giving the reward, this is considered a scam and is against the law.

  18. OscarMNOVA12

    28 Feb 2018 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Northern VA and Pittsburgh MASON, 12, 22172
    Edited 6 months ago by OscarMNOVA12

    It doesn't matter if it's match affecting or not, the rule is very clearly described here.

    <R15> Parts may NOT be modified as follows:
    a. Motors (including the internal PTC), extension cords, sensors, controllers, battery packs,
    reservoirs, solenoids, pistons and any other electrical component or pneumatics component

    Drilling the holes is a modification that is illegal. Even if not warned or not, that's competing with an illegal robot for the entire tournament.

    And furthermore, here:

    <R21> Any violation of robot rules will result in a team being unable to play until they pass
    inspection (per <R2d>). In addition, teams who intentionally circumvent or violate rules to gain an
    advantage over their fellow competitors are in violation of the spirit and ethos of the
    competition. As such, anyone caught violating a rule in this manner may be disqualified from
    upcoming matches, the event, or even future events at the discretion of the VEX Robotics
    Competition Game Design Committee

    So an event-wide DQ seems to be in order.

  19. I have no dog in the fight since I am from Canada but the RECF and the EP may have thought that since the illegal mod gave the team some sort of advantage throughout the tournament, it warranted a complete DQ from the event.

    As for the skills, there are at least two possible explanations. 1 explanation would be that they did not use their pneumatics at all for skills in which case they did not want to be over punitive. A second explanation may be that they simply missed it and allowed the skills scores to stand. I am not sure how TM works since I am not an event partner, but I hear from friends there are some things that do not happen automatically.

    Generally speaking, I have a lot of respect for 62A and have no personal knowledge of the event or of the alleged infraction. I am only commenting on the suggested reason they may have been DQ. If the DQ was for some other reason than a pneumatic tank alteration, then who knows.

    The OP said it was for illegal defense. I would be curious as to what the illegal defense was, that warranted such a harsh penalty if that is what it was. Did they install a saw blade that was cutting the other robots apart? We really need more info. Video would be helpful.

  20. [TVA]Connor

    28 Feb 2018 South Texas 1814D

    @OscarMNOVA12 It doesn't matter if it's match affecting or not, the rule is very clearly described here.

    Drilling the holes is a modification that is illegal. Even if not warned or not, that's competing with an illegal robot for the entire tournament.

    And furthermore, here:

    So an event-wide DQ seems to be in order.

    I am fully aware that it is Illegal, but accordig to <R21> a disqualification is only applied if the team gains or has an intention of gaining an advantage in the tournament.

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