Community Response to Best of 1

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  2. 5 months ago

    vex is cool

    Jun 6 Suspended

    wot? if fairness is a barrier to entry vex has another thing coming

  3. dtengineering

    Jun 6 Vancouver, BC

    After watching the livestream of Worlds -- which made it easy to see all the BC teams in action -- I have to admit that BO1 is efficient. Well, unless the ref has to make a DQ call, in which case it can drag on a bit.

    Over half (5/8, if I recall) of the BC teams playing in elimination rounds either advanced or were eliminated as a result of a DQ. In every case I believe the ref made the correct call (based on my point of view... other opinions may vary, of course) but it wasn't a great way to win or be eliminated.

    If efficiency, eliminating match-throwing, and keeping teams involved until the end of the day is the goal of this move, then really... the solution is simply to eliminate the elimination rounds all together. Play another round of qualifying matches and hand out the awards based on the rankings at the end of the day.

    You know... we'll implement BO1, and everyone will come and play, and at the end of the day there will be a champion. I'm not happy about the lack of consultation, or the way the change was imposed, but I do have faith that RECF and GDC members have been reminded that while they are entrusted to make big decisions like this - and have the right to do so - that those of us who have contributed to the growth of VRC also share a stake in the future of the game.

    Too many more fiascos like this and no one will have to worry about my concerns... I'll just go where I'm appreciated and feel included. Thankfully this is a rare event, and some things (like the upgrade path for new hardware) are handled exceptionally well. For now, I've got faith that displeasure has been communicated effectively and we won't be seeing random decisions shoved down our throats for a while.

    Jason

  4. [TVA]Connor

    Jun 6 South Texas 1814D

    @[TVA Connor]If you go to the Nothing But Net year which has Best of 3, you can see that ALL of the number one seeds make it to semi-finals (Prove me otherwise if I am wrong), and MORE THAN HALF of those won the divisions. I am pretty certain that RECF or whoever looks through this, looked mainly at the StarStruck year, where it is a back and forth action game that the game is almost like rolling a dice itself. Yes, you can consider Turning Point to be a back and forth action game. But when you consider a game that is based on back and forth like StarStruck, then using the results of a score-only game like In The Zone, I can very much say that the statistics that Paul said has a chance to be illegitimate. I can also say that there could also be a possibility that you could even see greater improvements by keeping Best Of 3 when considering In The Zone being similar to Nothing But Net as to how the similar the scoring is.

    I can say similarly the same thing about the Skyrise Game that has Best of 3 as well, where ALL of the rank 1 seeds made it to semi-finals.
    I can also say similarly the same thing in the year before where 4 out of 5 rank 1 seeds made it past semi-finals too.
    I can also say similarly the same thing during the 2013 world championship where ALL of the rank 1 seeds made it to the finals in their eliminations.
    All of these tournaments had Best Of 3 did they not?

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  8. ChrisR246

    Jun 6 Omaha, NE 985A

    @tabor473 So I looked into this. A single individual was asked but it was made clear to them they were speaking for the team. A few people responded along the lines of "I like bo1 but my teammate likes bo3" etc and those answers are all marked as undecided.

    thanks

  9. @dtengineering Too many more fiascos like this and no one will have to worry about my concerns... I'll just go where I'm appreciated and feel included. Thankfully this is a rare event, and some things (like the upgrade path for new hardware) are handled exceptionally well. For now, I've got faith that displeasure has been communicated effectively and we won't be seeing random decisions shoved down our throats for a while.

    Didn't have to wait very long. http://link.roboticseducation.org/vrc_qualifyingcriteria2018-19
    So long skills only events and top 50 qualification spots. Awaiting the Skills Outrage thread

  10. Foster

    Jun 6 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    Someone asked about "IQ team B01" is all they know. For my events I actually run a B02 for the finals. Since I run multiple fields at the same time, matches are a min long, and the setup time is short, it's fine. I take the "Best" score of the two runs. And we put some announcer flair on it "So the Thunder-saurs and DunkinBOT scored 100 points in their last run, placing them in third, can they beat that score and jump into first place?"

    Two caveats -- I only have elementary IQ teams, so I'm after inspiration, and I know how devastating a missed run due to failure can be. So I cut the younger roboteers a break.

    Second is that I work with the EP on having the best possible out comes at their events. So this eliminates a way for cranky parents to go off.

  11. TheColdedge

    Jun 6 Event Partner Columbus, Indiana 1483

    @Foster Someone asked about "IQ team B01" is all they know. For my events I actually run a B02 for the finals. Since I run multiple fields at the same time, matches are a min long, and the setup time is short, it's fine. I take the "Best" score of the two runs. And we put some announcer flair on it "So the Thunder-saurs and DunkinBOT scored 100 points in their last run, placing them in third, can they beat that score and jump into first place?"

    Two caveats -- I only have elementary IQ teams, so I'm after inspiration, and I know how devastating a missed run due to failure can be. So I cut the younger roboteers a break.

    Second is that I work with the EP on having the best possible out comes at their events. So this eliminates a way for cranky parents to go off.

    This is Intriguing. Does the local rep know this and still sign off on these being official qualifying tournaments? Seems like that wouldn't fly here.

  12. Foster

    Jun 6 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    The only qualifying event is the Delmarva championship, and I don't run that.

    "It's better to ask for forgiveness than spend hours getting permission" My first shop floor supervisor.

  13. TheColdedge

    Jun 6 Event Partner Columbus, Indiana 1483

    @Foster "It's better to ask for forgiveness than spend hours getting permission" My first shop floor supervisor.

    yeah I hear you.

  14. Best of 1 leads to some worse teams getting lucky, much more than would happen in Best of 3. @VEX GDC has to know it by know, especially after seeing some of the ITZ round robin matches.

  15. Download Complete

    Jun 8 Greater London, UK 7975F

    Hey @Paul Copioli . Would it be possible for you to share with the community some details about the data collection done by VEX about people’s opinions and responses to the new best of one system. I feel that the community has gone to great lengths to provide clear and transparent data using fair and sensible data collection techniques as shown in this thread.
    Would it therefore be possible for you to provide us with some details about the data you received and how you collected it. I feel it would really benefit the community if you could contribute the ‘official’ data to thread.

    Thanks for reading!

  16. nenik

    Jun 9 V5 Beta Tester

    @Foster Someone asked about "IQ team B01" is all they know.

    Even though most IQ teams only know Bo1, that doesn't make them happy about the format. Yes, they complain even w/o knowing a bit about VRC.

  17. NightsRosario

    Jun 9 Reisterstown/Catonsville, MD 3922A

    @Download Complete Hey @Paul Copioli . Would it be possible for you to share with the community some details about the data collection done by VEX about people’s opinions and responses to the new best of one system. I feel that the community has gone to great lengths to provide clear and transparent data using fair and sensible data collection techniques as shown in this thread.
    Would it therefore be possible for you to provide us with some details about the data you received and how you collected it. I feel it would really benefit the community if you could contribute the ‘official’ data to thread.

    Thanks for reading!

    Yes, yes, a million times yes. I would like to see this 'data' mainly because I am skeptical it even exists. I've polled a lot of people and I have an astounding 0% lf people that have responded with proof of being polled by the GDC. That may just be my sample, but I still find it astounding that even such a sample still has a 0%. Anyways, I would like a response from GDC about how the data was taken, that's all.

  18. Barin

    Jun 9 Arizona
    Edited 5 months ago by Barin

    @Download Complete Hey @Paul Copioli . Would it be possible for you to share with the community some details about the data collection done by VEX about people’s opinions and responses to the new best of one system. I feel that the community has gone to great lengths to provide clear and transparent data using fair and sensible data collection techniques as shown in this thread.
    Would it therefore be possible for you to provide us with some details about the data you received and how you collected it. I feel it would really benefit the community if you could contribute the ‘official’ data to thread.

    Thanks for reading!

    @NightsRosario Yes, yes, a million times yes. I would like to see this 'data' mainly because I am skeptical it even exists. I've polled a lot of people and I have an astounding 0% lf people that have responded with proof of being polled by the GDC. That may just be my sample, but I still find it astounding that even such a sample still has a 0%. Anyways, I would like a response from GDC about how the data was taken, that's all.

    You'd best email Paul email support@vex.com, asking for your message to be forwarded to Paul, seeking a response in this thread. He's probably too busy to respond quickly enough (before people start bringing out pitchforks) based on mentioning his username alone.

  19. AirplaneManiac

    Jun 9 Lake Stevens 8931F

    I created a poll that will collect data related to this along with a few other things I've been wondering for a while. It would be very much appreciated if you guys could fill it out, that way we can get some solid data on how people feel.
    Poll
    I will release what results I get after a week or two.

    If it could be passed on to others, outside of the vex forums, that would be much appreciated too!

  20. Aponthis

    Jun 13 Tempe, Arizona Formerly 127A, 127C, 127X

    @ChrisR246 There are more stakeholders involved here than just the students - referrees, judges, and all the other volunteers required to make a tournament happen; the coordinators who have to find them all, the coaches, parents etc. They all have desires and needs and should be considered and must be compromised with.

    Very close to a direct quote from my brother, who organizes and helps with several tournaments a year - "I'm not doing it anymore if it's best of one." I would have refereed regularly starting this season, more than I did while competing, but unfortunately I feel the same way as my brother. Not worth the drama involved in referees' and event partners' decisions affecting the outcome of the tournament drastically, especially when VEX rules can be so nebulous, hard to interpret, and frankly, inconsistent. Heck, we have a running forum thread on the enforcement of the pinning rule, and that's among individuals who actually know the rules well and are discussing video - not referees of various levels of training discussing their potentially flawed memory of a situation.

  21. 4 months ago

    @Unionjackjz1 Hi, not as relevant due to all of the other data you have, but I can confirm as a (former :P) member of 2496V that most of the members were in favor of bo1.

 

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