New qualification Document

  1. 2 weeks ago

    tabor473

    Jun 6 V5 Beta Tester OYES, WPI
    Edited 2 weeks ago by tabor473

    So the new qualification document is out and well, it changes everything.

    Find it here
    https://www.roboticseducation.org/documents/2018/06/vrc-qualifying-criteria-2018-19.pdf

    Some of the changes I am specifically sad about

    @meng I think Singapore might be dead as a region now :(
    -image-

    This seems needless. All it does is punish teams in regions that don't have many events or can't afford to travel much.
    Raises the barrier of entry to hosting an event. I always tell new EPs to host a skills only event as a practice for a larger event. No teams will travel to a non qualifying event.
    -image-

    This change seems to just tell teams "Hey you cant host an event and win all the awards/ qualifying spots just because your the only team there, o wait, yes you can if we like you"
    -image-

    @Gear Geeks I want to throw a little data out there, since we engineers deal in data not feelings. I have seen multiple posts that state that the change away from awarding worlds spots to the teams with top skills scores will impact teams from small regions. I wanted to use data to verify/refute this position - so I used the ITZ top 35 high school skills list. Last year, of the high school teams that were in the top 35 they were distributed as follows:
    US - 25 teams
    China - 1 team
    New Zealand - 1 team
    Canada - 4 teams
    Singapore - 4 teams

    Of the teams from outside the US, the teams from China, New Zealand and three of the teams from Canada qualified through their regional tournament to worlds. I didn't look up Singapore - but assume one qualified through their regional tournament and rest through skills (since Singapore had one slot to worlds last year).

    The data from last year does not support that argument that getting rid of skills will cause suffering to small regions. It will cause suffering to Singapore - but not widespread suffering broadly. Only one non-US team (from Canada) would not have gone to Worlds if this change were made lat year - and I don't consider Canada a "small region." Not opinion, just fact.

    Perhaps someone with more time than me can look at past years to see if last year was typical or an anomaly.

    Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

    I strongly disagree with the bolded assertion, and I think its a poor lesson for budding engineers. The feelings of key stakeholders are extremely important when making engineering decisions. For example, I work in the medical devices industry; there is no point in us making a perfectly functioning medical device if no one feels that it is useful, hence we focus a lot of time on engagement with hospitals and pharmacies early in the development process. The balance of relevant and full data with the feelings of major stakeholders is typically what should be used to make engineering decisions.

    In close relation to this, removing global skills spots has an effect on more people than just those who would have qualified using them. Global skills spots were seen as a reliable route to qualify for teams that practiced hard enough and put in enough effort. The feeling of no longer having a reliable route to qualification is what I saw cause several people to pull out of the Vex Robotics Competition yesterday due to this change. The "skills grind" is the most enjoyable part of the season for some people, and it gave students a massive chance to learn about the importance of dedication, discipline, and commitment.

    Meng took the words right out of my mouth with regard to your argument being flawed. New Zealand has certainly disproportionately benefited from global skills in some past seasons, even though we have been weak on skills for the past few years. Looking at one season's worth of data is not going to tell you anything useful here. Additionally, the whole point I was trying to make with that argument is that there is POTENTIAL for strong small regions to punch above their weight with global spots. The fact that Singapore is the only region currently doing that is totally irrelevant, because I don't think there are any flaws with the fundamental argument.

  2. tanigross

    Jun 6 61300A

    I don't understand, how many alliances make it from each local tournament?

  3. Grystrion

    Jun 6 Natick/Worcester MA WPI1, 5150F/G/H Alum.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sad to see worlds skills go too, rip Singapore, and rip skills bots. Also, with the lower judged awards qualifying for worlds, I feel like the overall quality of robots going to worlds will decrease. At least teams won't be complaining about being allied with a skills bot at their worlds qualifier.

  4. Doesn't it say that skills spots will fill any extra spots? That means the top couple teams from skills will still go to worlds.

  5. Foster

    Jun 6 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    The EP can hold 1 event without percentage constraints ... is because of me. I have multiple places that hold events, most of them are 24 team events. But I have a school that has 10 robots holding an event, they are going to want to have ALL their teams come to the event. So 40% of the robots at THAT event will be from one place. Not a big deal, since we'll have other events at other schools that meet the percent requirements. There are lots of places in the same position, so it makes our life easier and helps us have more events. Because MORE EVENTS is what we really want.

    Not sure how I feel about the lack of Worlds Skills, I thought that was a good way for great teams to get into Worlds. We often couple "Skills Only" with a come build all day and that was an attraction.

  6. tabor473

    Jun 6 V5 Beta Tester OYES, WPI
    Edited 2 weeks ago by tabor473

    @Foster The EP can hold 1 event without percentage constraints ... is because of me. I have multiple places that hold events, most of them are 24 team events. But I have a school that has 10 robots holding an event, they are going to want to have ALL their teams come to the event. So 40% of the robots at THAT event will be from one place. Not a big deal, since we'll have other events at other schools that meet the percent requirements. There are lots of places in the same position, so it makes our life easier and helps us have more events. Because MORE EVENTS is what we really want.

    Not sure how I feel about the lack of Worlds Skills, I thought that was a good way for great teams to get into Worlds. We often couple "Skills Only" with a come build all day and that was an attraction.

    If there are more than 6 organizations it should be fine anyway right? Which is like 5 organizations of 3 teams each.

    If an event has fewer than 6 organizations registered, no organization may have more than 33% of the total number of registered teams.

  7. tabor473

    Jun 6 V5 Beta Tester OYES, WPI

    @ReeseSteindler Doesn't it say that skills spots will fill any extra spots? That means the top couple teams from skills will still go to worlds.

    That is only if there are extra spots in that region? A lot of regions will not have any. Singapore for example have 1 HS spot yet have qualified 5 teams every year through the skills scores. (done from memory don't hate me Meng)

    Small competitive regions are being crippled.

  8. Saahil Parikh

    Jun 6 V5 Beta Tester California 3050a
    Edited 2 weeks ago by Saahil Parikh

    Skills was the only thing that kept me sane, now that's gone too... When I saw B01 I was like eh, it's bad but it might be better in the long run. However, effectively replacing the most nonbiased qualification component in the whole entire competition with signature events spots (at least that's what I'm assuming) is outrageous. If you can't afford to shovel out enough money for a plane ticket to Hawaii don't even bother trying anymore. Can you please take a moment and think before you make your next decision? Thanks.

    B01 at states and no skills. Hmp, what's next.

  9. Joseph - 5588

    Jun 6 MD 5588D

    Skills was the only way to have a sense of security for qualifying for worlds. Especially now in BO1, competition is much less reliable that you'll win states/regionals.

    Seems like it's all thrown to the dice now

  10. Foster

    Jun 6 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    @tabor473 -- No not really 24 - 10 = 14 / 5 = 3 teams per organization, and they all have 6 teams. Most of the time they bring 4 robots, so I'm looking at 5 schools.

  11. Deleted 2 weeks ago by NightsRosario
  12. tanigross

    Jun 6 61300A

    so how many alliances go per local tournament?

  13. Andrew Strauss

    Jun 6 Ontario, Canada 5225A Mentor
    Edited 2 weeks ago by Andrew Strauss

    Edit: Oops, I completely missed the bit about not qualifying teams based on the top world wide rankings, I thought that was just a change for skills only events. Ignore most of what I said.

    How does this diminish skills in any way shape or form? All it does is make you set the record at a regular competition instead of a skills only event. It discourages skills only bots, which I think should never have existed in the first place anyways, so I'm thrilled that they've changed this. It should increase the level of competitiveness at worlds because you'll get less teams that have ran their run 50 times to try and set a record at a skills only event, when you only get 3 runs of each at worlds anyways.

  14. meng

    Jun 6 Singapore 8059

    Honestly, i don't think we will take the problem to fly over for worlds if it is just for one team.

    And this is another example of recf making decision without consulting people that are at the ground level and not understanding the local context / constraints.

    Schools in Singapore are discouraged to go overseas for competitions. So in general, one trip per year is about the max that we can get approval for. So there is not much chance that we can go for APAC, etc.

    And even if we can get approval, just imagine the extra cost required just to get a chance to qualify for worlds. :(

    But you guys are right - it basically spells the end of Singapore in vex.
    And i am pretty sure many smaller regions will feel the same effect as us, which means, very soon, recf can rename world championship as US Open or US Invitational.

    I really don't see how these new changes encourage growth in the smaller regions.

  15. Download Complete

    Jun 6 Greater London, UK 7975F

    I have mixed feelings towards this latest change. I feel that it does really hinder teams who do use skills to qualify every year and also those in regions where there are very few assigned spots.
    The idea of signature competitions seems exiting to me but to be fair and successful there will have to be lots of them all around the world to make them accessible. For example I would love a European championship but we might only be able to attend if it was hosted in the UK due to the costs and logistics involved with international travel.
    We are also unsure how many spots have been allocated to these signature events. There could now be more spots for each region if there is no longer skills which would be beneficial to some regions.
    I am slightly unsure why this change has come so suddenly, skills was the most fair way of individual judging robot performance and without it having spots at worlds makes the competition less fair.
    I also really don’t understand why skills only events are now for practice only. I really see no reason for this to be the case. These events were valid and useful events which many teams attend and enjoy.

  16. OscarMNOVA12

    Jun 6 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Northern VA and Pittsburgh 12
    Edited 2 weeks ago by OscarMNOVA12

    From my experience with signature events, regardless of the size it is normally just the Excellence award that qualifies for Worlds.

    And with skills now not qualifying for events except in the case of Double Quals, I really hope this means they can correct what I think is an error in only giving Singapore a single slot. Whatever their formula, I just don't see how it's justified.

  17. Deleted 2 weeks ago by Rick TYler
  18. Nicholas Xavier

    Jun 6 X-Mansion (1407 Graymalkin Lan...
    Edited 2 weeks ago by Nicholas Xavier

    @meng But you guys are right - it basically spells the end of Singapore in vex.
    And i am pretty sure many smaller regions will feel the same effect as us, which means, very soon, recf can rename world championship as US Open or US Invitational.

    I really don't see how these new changes encourage growth in the smaller regions.

    I agree. These new changes are horrendous. Worlds is already centered enough around US teams (~80% are from the US IIRC); why does RECF need to make that percentage even higher?

  19. tabor473

    Jun 6 V5 Beta Tester OYES, WPI

    @Andrew Strauss We are also unsure how many spots have been allocated to these signature events. There could now be more spots for each region if there is no longer skills which would be beneficial to some regions.

    Skills only events were cheap, easy to run and easy to attend. I went to one that was a Thursday after school. Any school could run one and invite everyone nearby to meet the minimum teams. Skills only tournaments lowered the barrier to entry for hosting an event.

    If there are a lot of skills only events going on it means any team can find an event to post skills scores. Now only teams that are willing and able to travel farther and attend a full event have that opportunity.

  20. Deleted 2 weeks ago by DRow
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