Can a team get to Worlds on Skills alone?

  1. 3 months ago

    I thought I heard a few months ago that Vex had eliminated the old system of getting to Worlds by being in the top of Skills. But now I'm told that is not true - if a high school team is in the top 35 or a middle school team is in the top 15, they will get an invitation.

    I see on RobotEvents.com that the deadline for qualifying for Worlds Top 50 is 2019-03-12, but it doesn't say anything about getting an invitation out of that.
    https://www.robotevents.com/robot-competitions/vex-robotics-competition/standings/skills

    In any case, I'm confused. Can a team get to Worlds on Skills alone this season?

  2. eggplant

    Oct 13 Wisconsin 9144B

    Here's the doc with all the stuff in it Click

  3. @eggplant Here's the doc with all the stuff in it Click

    Thanks for the link. Yes, I found the relevant quote in those documents:

    "World Robot Skills Standings
    Teams will no longer be invited from the World Robot Skills Standings unless it is to award a spot to a team based on a Double Qualification scenario as described in the previous section."

  4. MayorMonty

    Oct 13 Greenville, SC 3796B

    You can get to worlds only from skills provided the following situations:

    • You can qualify to state through skills (either to fill double qualifications or to fill empty spots at the end of the season)
    • Your state's skills champion qualifies for Worlds OR there's a double qualification which is filled by skills. Usually this is the same team being tournament champions and winning excellence
  5. _7682

    Oct 13 V5 Beta Tester

    World Robot Skills Standings in past seasons had 35/15 VRC worlds slots allocated. These have been re-distributed to the signature events instead. I quote from the recently released Signature Events document:

    The REC Foundation is excited to announce the Signature Events for the 2018-2019 season. Signature Events offer students a unique opportunity to connect with their peers from around the world, share their enjoyment of robotics, explore new venues, and compete to qualify for the VEX Robotics World Championship.

    I'm really interested to see just how many teams from around the world actually sign up or if it's just going to be nearby teams.

  6. MayorMonty

    Oct 13 Greenville, SC 3796B

    @_7682 I'm really interested to see just how many teams from around the world actually sign up or if it's just going to be nearby teams.

    If I'm remembering correctly, at least 25% of the teams need to be from out of the region

  7. _7682

    Oct 13 V5 Beta Tester

    @MayorMonty If I'm remembering correctly, at least 25% of the teams need to be from out of the region

    Out of region potentially being the state next door... I really don't see this being an opportunity to connect with peers from around the world as the document says. We'll see when teams sign up.

  8. AlexM_4478X

    Oct 14 Monroe, CT 4478X

    @_7682 Out of region potentially being the state next door... I really don't see this being an opportunity to connect with peers from around the world as the document says. We'll see when teams sign up.

    Connecting with teams from "the state next door" could still be helpful. My local Signature event may have 169 show up (who we have never competed against) and has already had a team from CA sign up. Signature events also give teams a specific competition to attend if they wanted to take a bigger trip (maybe if they didn't qualify for worlds but still wanted to attend a Worlds-like event. Of course this may not happen in NZ but thats simply because most Vex teams are in the US

  9. _7682

    Oct 15 V5 Beta Tester

    @AlexM_4478X Connecting with teams from "the state next door" could still be helpful. My local Signature event may have 169 show up (who we have never competed against) and has already had a team from CA sign up. Signature events also give teams a specific competition to attend if they wanted to take a bigger trip (maybe if they didn't qualify for worlds but still wanted to attend a Worlds-like event. Of course this may not happen in NZ but thats simply because most Vex teams are in the US

    I think that summarizes signature events nicely. Works for larger regions where popping next door is feasible. So far as a replacement for global skills, where the worlds spots came from, it has essentially just re-allocated those spots to larger regions. Happy to be proven wrong but the "unique opportunity to connect with their peers from around the world" RECF mention seems very unlikely to be realized. Worlds is where teams get to connect with their peers from around the world.

  10. meng

    Oct 16 Singapore 8059

    @_7682 I think that summarizes signature events nicely. Works for larger regions where popping next door is feasible. So far as a replacement for global skills, where the worlds spots came from, it has essentially just re-allocated those spots to larger regions. Happy to be proven wrong but the "unique opportunity to connect with their peers from around the world" RECF mention seems very unlikely to be realized. Worlds is where teams get to connect with their peers from around the world.

    Totally agree with @_7682 in this aspect.

    All these removing of global skills (for worlds qualifications), no replacement of drivers for the entire seasons, etc.... to put it bluntly, all these are put in mainly to resolve the issues faced by USA. But the rest of the world is suffering for it.

    right from the start, the international teams have been trying to tell recf that signature events will not work (at least for the rest of the world).
    We can't just pack the robots at the back of the car and drive to another state for signature events. we need to squeeze out close to $10k to fly over to another nearby country and cross our fingers that things will work out for us in the bo1 format.

    and oh... no worries about no more worlds qualifications via skills, you can always earn it from the signature events. and now no MS spots (according to the organiser) or max 1 spot (according to recf document) will be awarded in APAC. Cool...

    don't even try convincing me that taking part in vex competitions is just for learning and there is no need to aim to go for worlds. honestly, you don't spend so much and dump in so much resources just to learn. we want the kids to learn AND to aim to be the best (i.e. win worlds). If it is just about learning, i can just get a $50 arduino and get them to learn as well.

    and one more point that was mentioned by @_7682 before in another thread - the part about skills challenge having the ability to inspire teams. it is so true.... and i will throw in motivation and energy into the mix as well. not sure is it the same situation in NZ, but over at my end, the motivation and drive is definitely one notch lower than past seasons.

    Many of you would not like what i am saying here, but the fact of the matter is that Vex is increasingly and rapidly becoming more and more US-centric. If nothing is going to change, I foresee the international market shifting to other platforms within 3 years. And yes, there are potential platforms that have been emerging in the past 1 or 2 years....

  11. TriDragon

    Oct 16 Tampa, FL 6430 - Mentor

    @meng MS is clearly being steered toward IQ. I hate the skills setup this year. That was something that really drove some of our teams and they could work on it on their own with no "random" team selection or "judging" in the process. They got out of it what they put into it. I think they have really added rules to fix a 1% problem but messing up the other 99%. In IQ it seems they were concerned adults were writing code and getting the skills that way, but then they implemented coding "tests" for the upper ranked teams (pulled them aside and made the kids program a clawbot), I thought it was a great compromise.
    You guys are clearly getting the brunt of these rules. I remember you saying that earlier and Paul saying you needed to grow your region if you want more spots. Just condescending in my opinion. They really seem far more concerned with the notebook this year than with skills/programming.

  12. lacsap

    Oct 16 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Massachusetts 9791[a-z]

    @meng Many of you would not like what i am saying here, but the fact of the matter is that Vex is increasingly and rapidly becoming more and more US-centric. If nothing is going to change, I foresee the international market shifting to other platforms within 3 years. And yes, there are potential platforms that have been emerging in the past 1 or 2 years....

    Interesting perspective. Another way to look at it, RECF might be looking to distribute World like events around the globe and reduce the size of the Worlds event in the US. VRC and VEXIQ are growing a good rate, and the venue options of holding an event the size of current Worlds is limited. So having more large scale regional Signature event may be a way to get away from sending every one from every state to Worlds and get more non-US teams to Worlds while keeping the size of the event the same. It does not help Singapore's situation - it is expensive no matter what, as it is for Hawaii, NZ and other small regions/countries.

  13. meng

    Oct 16 Singapore 8059

    @lacsap Interesting perspective. Another way to look at it, RECF might be looking to distribute World like events around the globe and reduce the size of the Worlds event in the US. VRC and VEXIQ are growing a good rate, and the venue options of holding an event the size of current Worlds is limited. So having more large scale regional Signature event may be a way to get away from sending every one from every state to Worlds and get more non-US teams to Worlds while keeping the size of the event the same. It does not help Singapore's situation - it is expensive no matter what, as it is for Hawaii, NZ and other small regions/countries.

    If this is their intention, then they should state it clearly and outright.
    and they shouldnt even called those events as signature events that will lead to worlds. eg. FRC has 2 world championships, and both are called world championship.

    As long as the event will lead to worlds, then it holds no water to say that they are trying to distribute world-like events around the globe. and it definitely will not help with the intention of "unique opportunity to connect with their peers from around the world".

  14. lacsap

    Oct 16 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Massachusetts 9791[a-z]

    @meng If this is their intention, then they should state it clearly and outright.

    Indeed , lacking any formal statement, we are left to our imaginations about the intent of their changes.

  15. Gear Geeks

    Oct 16 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Virginia, USA 8044

    This is from the 2018/2019 Qualifying Criteria: "The REC Foundation is excited to announce that a series of Signature Events, from around the world,will begin enabling teams to earn an invitation to directly attend the VEX Robotics WorldChampionship. The intent of these special events is to promote cross-regional and international play and provide teams with an additional opportunity to qualify for the World Championship."
    So they have stated their intent. It looks like there are three intents (1) cross-regional play (2) international play and (3) additional opportunity to qualify teams for Worlds. I think they are meeting all three of their intents.

  16. OscarMNOVA12

    Oct 16 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Northern VA and Pittsburgh MASON, 12, 22172

    @meng or other international peeps feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't traveling out of your respective country in general pretty darn expensive? Like if I was a coach not in the USA I think I'd emphasize going to Worlds the most over other events, unless it was pretty subsidized or we had substantial funding to go.

  17. Foster

    Oct 16 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    @meng The driver rule seemed pretty heavy handed. In IQ it's G6, and a question was asked and answered by the GDC

    https://www.robotevents.com/VIQC/2018-2019/QA/56

    They have a clear intent and understand what the real world is. I haven't bothered to check out the VRC Q&A, but it's possible that the GDC has also answered it there.

  18. meng

    Oct 16 Singapore 8059

    @OscarMNOVA12 @meng or other international peeps feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't traveling out of your respective country in general pretty darn expensive? Like if I was a coach not in the USA I think I'd emphasize going to Worlds the most over other events, unless it was pretty subsidized or we had substantial funding to go.

    Yes... it is expensive. Most students couldn’t afford more than one overseas trip a year. So we will definitely prioritise worlds over any signature events.
    But of course, the issue is that without global skills qualifications, most of the teams will need to go for a signature event to hope to qualify for worlds. But most of the students just couldn’t afford so many trips.

    And that’s the reason why @_7682 and I believe signature events will not work outside USA.

    So I wonder how much cross regional and international play is really going to happen outside USA.

  19. meng

    Oct 16 Singapore 8059

    @Foster @meng The driver rule seemed pretty heavy handed. In IQ it's G6, and a question was asked and answered by the GDC

    https://www.robotevents.com/VIQC/2018-2019/QA/56

    They have a clear intent and understand what the real world is. I haven't bothered to check out the VRC Q&A, but it's possible that the GDC has also answered it there.

    It is heavy handed, and I will say almost as heavy as removing global skills qualifications.

    the driver rules is unnecessary for smaller regions, simply because we only have one main event to qualify for worlds - our nationals.
    And if it is because of global skills qualifications, then as I mentioned before - most regions outside USA actually recorded our skills runs with the Drivers in the video. No chance of cheating.

    That’s the reason why I believe these rules is actually implemented to mainly address US-specific issues.

  20. Foster

    Oct 16 League Play, Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Delmarva Chief Roboteer STEM Robotics

    So the answer says
    The intent of the more specific language in G6 was to penalize organizations that were using their best drive team to qualify multiple teams to their Regional / State / World championship. This behavior is not within the spirit of the VEX IQ Challenge.

    Event Partners should bear in mind G3, and use common sense when enforcing this rule. It is not our intent to punish a Team who may change Drivers over the course of a season due to illness, changing schools, conflicts within a Team, graduating up to VRC, etc. We do not expect EP's and referees keep a roster of any student who has ever driven for a day.

    To answer your specific question, a student who fills in as a "substitute" Driver for a single day/tournament due to a Team having only one student in attendance at the event would not fall under the intent of this rule.

    So I'm not seeing why this is a big deal. If you are not "single driving for all robots" then it's not a big deal. They use G3 the "common sense" rule, if you have drivers step in at the last minute to help out, then they are good. Help me understand how this is hurting your chances to get to Worlds.

    Thanks!
    Foster

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