1. 2 months ago

    Adam T

    Nov 13 Event Partner Jenison, MI Jension Robotics

    Toggled – A Flag status. A Flag is Toggled when the Flag’s pointer is not nested in the Detent

    IMG_6526[1].JPG

    So is this flag toggled or not?

  2. lacsap

    Nov 13 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Massachusetts 9791[a-z]

    toggled red as the pointer is not seated at bottom of detent.

    but i can be wrong.

  3. Edited 2 months ago by Got a Screw Loose

    The only way to know for sure is to ask in the official Q&A. https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA?page=1

    But, I agree with @lacsap that is would be toggled.
    EDIT: I looked up the rule. I changed my mind. But it should still be asked.

  4. Adam T

    Nov 13 Event Partner Jenison, MI Jension Robotics

    I tried searching for this being discussed before but I couldn't find anything. I wasn't sure if I was just missing it or not.

  5. seanmac0230

    Nov 13 Illinois 2360N

    I had the same question! Thanks for asking the forum.

  6. Edited 2 months ago by Got a Screw Loose

    Well, in speedcubing (which is solving Rubik’s cubes really fast), if the piece is turned more than 45 degrees towards the solved state, it counts as solved. I would apply the same methodology here, I think. It it’s not fully nested, it’s toggled. I’ll have to look fo the definition in the rule book to be sure.

    EDIT: Looked up the rule. See my next post.

  7. Toggled – A Flag status. A Flag is Toggled when the Flag’s pointer is not nested in the Detent and the Flag is not touching a robot of the color Alliance for which the Flag would award points. When Toggled, points are awarded to the red Alliance if the pointer is to the left of the Detent, and awarded to the blue Alliance if the pointer is to the right of the Detent. In the case that the Flag pivots beyond the containing PVC structure, the Flag is no longer Toggled

    This quote of toggled from the manual does not specify fully nested, like I thought it might have. Therefore, I would call this flag not toggled. It has to be not nested in the detention, which I take to mean not nested at all.

    I would still ask on the Q&A, though. Can somebody with the ability to do so do it?

  8. action000

    Nov 13 Event Partner Grandville, MI The RoboDawgs

    @Got a Screw Loose This quote of toggled from the manual does not specify fully nested, like I thought it might have. Therefore, I would call this flag not toggled. It has to be not nested in the detention, which I take to mean not nested at all.

    I would still ask on the Q&A, though. Can somebody with the ability to do so do it?

    I'm in the same boat, would have thought fully nested as that is easier for the referees to determine. However, it doesn't appear that is the case. With a lot of play, the side of the detent can get worn down, and I can see this being more of a subjective call for the referees - which I don't like.

  9. Adam T

    Nov 13 Event Partner Jenison, MI Jension Robotics

    https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA/142

  10. lacsap

    Nov 13 Event Partner, V5 Beta Tester Massachusetts 9791[a-z]

    There are five conditions, pointer on either side of the peak or resting on the peak of the detent red/blue and nested (valley of the detent). The picture looks like the third case - resting on the peak. Hence my original statement of Toggled RED.

    If someone does not get to it sooner, I can post on the Q&A tonight with the conditions.

  11. @Adam T https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA/142

    Thanks.

    @lacsap It’s been taken care of. However, resting literally on top of the peak might be interesting. I don’t know if that would ever occur, and it depends on how they respond to the Q&A question. It wouldn’t be resting inside, nor outside of the detent.
    I guess it would not be to the right or left of the detent, either. So I would apply the Same ruling the Q&A does, whenever they get around to it.
    But resting on the slope outside of the detent should count as toggled, right?

  12. Adam T

    Nov 13 Event Partner Jenison, MI Jension Robotics

    For what it's worth this picture was from a skills run. The team didn't get credit for the point, but they will have additional chances in the future to get the flag scored more definitively.

  13. @Adam T For what it's worth this picture was from a skills run. The team didn't get credit for the point, but they will have additional chances in the future to get the flag scored more definitively.

    Interesting. If it happened once, it’s bound to happen again. It would be nice to get a blanket ruling on this, just to be sure. But, I’m inclined to agree with the judge who scored their match.

  14. Adam T

    Nov 13 Event Partner Jenison, MI Jension Robotics
    Edited 2 months ago by Adam T

    Personally I have a difficult time describing this as nested. I do think this example is right at the dividing line, it's at the point of the detent (worn though it may be), the flag detent indicator has no more room to rise. If it was any closer to being nested it would be considered nested. If it's at this point or rotated farther then it would not be considered nested.

    Until we get clarification I would probably rule that if the flag's detent indicator is at or beyond the apex of the detent then it's not nested. If the flag's detent indicator has not yet reached the detent's apex then it's still nested.

  15. Edited 2 months ago by Got a Screw Loose

    @Adam T Personally I have a difficult time describing this as nested. I do think this example is right at the dividing line, it's at the point of the detent (worn though it may be), the flag detent indicator has no more room to rise. If it was any closer to being nested it would be considered nested. It it's at this point or rotated farther then it would not be considered nested.

    Until we get clarification I would probably rule that if the flag's detent indicator is at or beyond the apex of the detent then it's not nested. If the flag's detent indicator has not yet reached the detent's apex then it's still nested.

    As you are an EP, I respect your decision, but I won’t expect other EPs to follow you until we have a clarification. Thanks for your input. :)

  16. goofnrox

    Nov 13 Jenison MI Jenison Robotics

    If it was a cone from ITZ sitting on top of another cone like that(stretch analogy I know) it would NOT have been considered nested. Why would this be any different? Nested implies to me the point should be squarely in the valley.

  17. Crazycrabman

    Nov 13 Los Angeles California 6526 D

    We have always considered that the flag in the picture would be scored for red and not neutral.

  18. Edited 2 months ago by Got a Screw Loose

    @goofnrox If it was a cone from ITZ sitting on top of another cone like that(stretch analogy I know) it would NOT have been considered nested. Why would this be any different? Nested implies to me the point should be squarely in the valley.

    I was thinking along the same terms, but they changed their definition of nested. It is further clarified by the section of the rule specifying that the flag would be to the left or right of the detent to be toggled for each team.
    I would be satisfied either way, but how far would we go if we went so far as to say that it was toggled?
    Where would we draw the line?
    EDIT: Or did ITZ use the term nestled? I don’t remember.

  19. goofnrox

    Nov 13 Jenison MI Jenison Robotics

    @Got a Screw Loose I was thinking along the same terms, but they changed their definition of nested. It is further clarified by the section of the rule specifying that the flag would be to the left or right of the detent to be toggled for each team.
    I would be satisfied either way, but how far would we go if we went so far as to say that it was toggled?
    Where would we draw the line?
    EDIT: Or did ITZ use the term nestled? I don’t remember.

    Both used the term nested.

  20. Huh, then we really need a clarification. The manual defines “scored,” but not “nested.” I’m still in the boat that it needs to be outside of the detent to be toggled. But, I would like it to count as toggled, just I think that it won’t be.

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