2616J reveal

That’s is exactly what happened to us, but only few teams continuously did it the whole match.

Way to be mean, ruiqi. The time you would spend in destroying their robot wont be worth it. And also you might get called for some penalty.

I think that this robot is pretty great. Can you effectively retract individual arms to let your partner score?

Only telling the truth :smiley: I personally can’t stand wallbots.

I find it extremely difficult to see a robot break from ramming.

If anything, the most damage I’ve seen on a vex robot was snapping gears on a tower, sprockets on an intake, bending axles, and stripping plastic holes. All of these mistakes root from poor construction.

Especially with newton’s third law, and the number of speed robots, a person with half a brain can reinforce a robot to last any ramming match, especially if that robot was built for sole defense. At most, I would think the offender would damage their own drive train motors.

Watch the quarter finals matches of 40a vs 2915 2625 2941d
You will notice that the wall bot is bent out by a minute amount of coordination and team work.
At first a robot can block the wallbots teammate and then switch to help lifting off the wallbot. Maybe you don’t permanently Bend alp the components but you do beat the wall bot.

The reason 40a lost that is because of their design. We built a double trough blocker and we know more than anyone the importance of protecting your partner if you’re a wallbot… This wallbot left its partner out to dry so they were unable to score many points. If the wallbot had opened faster (read: instantaneously by rubber bands) and blocked the full field, his partner would have been safe and able to score more points.

So that would be my suggestion to 2616j as well. In a competitive environment like worlds, you can expect your opponents to play defense on your partner leaving your team with essentially no way to score in the cylinders or the goal zone effectively and it will end up as basically a 1v0. Figure out how to protect your partner and your robot becomes a lot more viable.

It’s very possible to beat a wall bot, or even take advantage of mechanical flaws to win easily. It’s also quite possible to bend axles or pop chain, but I’m referring to crippling damage: channels, screws, walls rending internally or snapping a the joints.

To me, it looks like the wall bot was already bent on its left wing by 0:10 when running into the wall. On it’s right wing, you can see that thing wiggle like jello at 0:22-0:23 before 2941(?) even touches it.

Sure, at 0:26-0:29 and 1:14-1:20, they make the arm massively bend, but in my opinion, despite it’s intimidation, it was not stabilized well to complete the strategy. The opposing alliance already had the means to counter before the robot was in position.

At most, those axles could be bent. They can be removed, reformed (not to the same quality of course), and recycled in minutes. If needed, they could buy more shafts to completely replace it. But it’s definitely not a crippling issue like a 1:2 speed drive shutting down, gear teeth snapping off, or axles completely twisting and shearing

G11 not only revokes damage protections, but also tipping, entanglement and pinning protections from a wallbot. This means that a team could intentionally tip, grab, pin, or lift a wallbot without penalty. I know some teams last year (including ours) prototyped high torque 1-match add-on lifts that could be used to lift and/or flip wallbots. It seems to me that a high-torque forklift could lift this goal-capper over the wall and out of the field… there is no rule against it. And on elevated Worlds fields, that would be a nasty fall for the wallbot.

EDIT: I enjoy seeing defensive and nuclear strategies like this as they add a new and different aspect to the game, which is fun to watch play out, but I also think these teams need to be extremely smart and extremely careful to avoid being taken advantage of via G11. I think GDC has done a good job of making it just as hard to win with a defensive robot as it is with an offensive one. Good luck to you guys!

Dude…

You absolutely should NOT try to throw a wallbot out of the field. No referee in the world will let you get away with that. If you aren’t allowed to rip the wires out of a wallbot, what makes you think throwing it out of the field would be legal? This is one of those things that seems like it was fall under “common sense.” Grab it and pull it off the goal? Sure. Go for it. Tip the robot backwards? Good idea. Torque it out of the way? Give it your best shot. But don’t lift it out of the field.

The GDC actually made it VERY hard to get a wallbot to Worlds this year. Nearly half of the spots were given out based on skills. Wallbots can’t get any of those. I don’t think we’re going to see very many, and any that are there likely qualified with a different robot and rebuilt. Anyone who DOES bring one will be fully aware of G11, and ready to play around it.

Can’t help but feel that he was joking…

No protections for lifting, tipping, or damaging a wallbot. I don’t think it SHOULD be legal to throw a robot out of the field but when I read this rule I see it as saying “No mercy. Do whatever you want to a wallbot.” As far as that clause is concerned, it may unfortunately be legal to remove a wallbot from the field. Plus, in my experience refs are extremely hesitant to issue disqualifications against teams, and would probably consult Karthik to try to figure out what to do. Perhaps this is worthy of a Q&A?

I’m not planning to lift any robots out of the field, that was a bit of a hyperbole. In my opinion, we wasted a lot of time last year building the high-torque add-on lift to tip wallbots that we never competed against, but nevertheless it’s an example of how far teams can and will go to win. Teams with wallbots need to be prepared for things like that in order to be successful.

To be honest, this issue is one of my least favorite aspects of VRC. Forum discussions, like this one, become nasty with teams talking about destroying each other’s robots, and it makes VRC seem cold-blooded.

Actually, it looks like you’re the only one talking about destroying robots so you’re the one responsible for making us seem cold blooded.

To comment on the legality of doing intentional damage to a wallbot such as throwing it out of the field, you should probably think back to G1 AKA “Common Sense” as well as S1, the rule about SAFETY. As a ref, if I watched you do that kind of harm to ANY Robot and remove it from the field, I would not only disqualify you but follow your matches throughout the day to make sure you didn’t do anything else that reasonable teams would not consider a part of the ethos of the vex robotics competition.

To comment on the plausibility of actually lifting a wallbot out of the field, I say GOOD LUCK LOL. Our first wallbot in gateway weighed over 30 pounds and was 7 feet wide. Out second wallbot in sack attack weighed very nearly 50 pounds and was 12 feet wide and three feet deep. I don’t care what you put on your robot, there’s no way you’ll be picking me up with robots like that.

There is no way any referee in the WORLD would let you dump a robot off the field. Good lord. No one needs to prepare for that. You’ll break the Cortex with a 4 foot drop, along with Gyroscopes, Accelerometers and any number of other components. You would be kicked out of any tournament with fields on the GROUND, let alone 3 feet up.

Tip the wallbot. Go ahead. But if you don’t think that throwing one out of the field is something that would be prohibited, you need to seriously evaluate the “common sense” rule. As well as safety. You’re potentially dropping 30+ lbs onto the ground. Field reset crews, referees, and even the drivers could be at risk from that. Who knows what pops off and goes flying everywhere? No one has to design a robot to take a 50" drop off a field.

As for being callous, you’re the only one making this argument. The rest of us are trying to either discuss the validity of a wallbot or help teams make theirs better. A guy thought you were being hyperbolic, because this argument is so far out of left field. Wallbots are fun. They make teams think about how to counter them, make the game different. If you don’t want to build one, fine. But don’t be insane.

You should probably read my entire post and the whole thread before you respond to it.

As for being the only one to mention destroying the wallbot…

This is what I was talking about when I said “forum discussions become nasty.” You yourself suggested ripping the robot’s arms off, yet you claim not to be talking about destroying the robot?

Yeah, one is legal, one isn’t.

I’m in the middle of getting this carried over from last year, but in Sack Attack Karthik broke down <G11> into basically reasonable attempts to get by the wallbot, and just causing damage for the same of causing damage. The first is obviously legal, the second isn’t. Here’s the quote.

Things in the first group are exactly what I listed. Anything that involves pushing, shoving, ramming or pinning any part of the robot IN THE EFFORT TO GET BY. That’s all legal, and 100% expected. Teams should build their wallbots to deal with vigorous interaction, and have replacements for any easily damaged parts.

The second group is the insane stuff. Ripping wires out of the robot. Going after the VEXNet key. Throwing it out of the field. That’s way outside the scope of what anyone should have to design for, and prohibited (in Karthik’s own words last year) by <G1>.

I’m all for reasonable discussion on the validity and rulings regarding wallbots. As soon as we see this or any other unique design, my team starts talking about the best way to beat it. But when people start spreading misinformation like the idea that it would be okay to throw one out of the field, I’m going to call you on it. I don’t want to have to deal with a half-dozen teams at Worlds throwing really awesome designs out of the field because “that guy on the forums said it was probably okay.”

The Q&A question went up last night when I expected this would end up being an issue. You want a more specific ruling than the one I’m trying to get? Go for it. Ask whatever you want. That’s what it’s there for. But I think what I’ve posted is going to cover it.

-____- Really people?

Yes it was very simple the cap was our locking mechanism and controlled by motors to lift up and down, when lifted up when locked it shot and and could be moved up and down with ease[ATTACH]8149[/ATTACH]
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1394246265.699514.jpg

That was the biggest issue for what I think most defensive robots, that it could be 1-0, so I believe that the only thing that made us different from the average one was that we didn’t block our partner permanently from scoring in the stashes, while it was rare for the other team.

You seem fixated on the idea that I want to throw the wallbot out of the field. I don’t. I don’t know how many times I need to say it or quote it. I’ll concede that it’s not legal to throw a wallbot out of the field but I will stress that I think it is unfair for you to claim that I’m the only one who is mentioning the idea of destroying the wallbot and that I’m speaking nonsense when I say that coming onto a team’s reveal thread and talking about tearing their robot’s arms off is just as cold-blooded as talking about removing it from the field.

The reason I mentioned that idea was to emphasize the extremity of G11 and what it has become, and what it might be interpreted to be (in extreme cases). It’s always a good idea to prepare for a situation that might occur, even if it can only occur by illegal actions of an opponent. I have seen and heard of teams winning through illegal means, even at Worlds, and I could see a team being DQ’d from one elimination match for completely and illegally destroying a wallbot, only to find that in Match 2 and Match 3, the wallbot is still broken from Match 1 and then that team could still beat the wallbot and win. Something similar happened in the College finals, when NAR’s opponents ripped wires out of their troughcapper but still won the round and the tournament because NAR didn’t have time to repair their robot completely before the last match.

(on a more positive sidenote, this is my 1400th post! :cool: )

In any case, good luck to 2616J with your robot, and sorry we hijacked your thread. :slight_smile: