A Petition for Better Regulations on PTC Checks at Worlds

[Highwayman]

One bit of good news is with the new smart motors coming out, theoretically PTC checks should soon be a thing of the past (although probably not for several years yet). Who knows if there will be some easy way to modify those motors to gain an advantage though

[Karthik]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention (and avoiding the personal attacks we’ve noticed about this issue in other parts of the web). We just had a debrief with out chief referee and inspector team, and we’ve identified a few places for improvement in the PTC testing procedure for Worlds. We’ll be doing some more investigation and research over the next few months to refine the process so it’s less intrusive for teams. Options under consideration including changing the timing of the testing and enforcing minimum “cool down” periods after testing. The goal is to find the right balance between keeping the competition fair for teams and not putting undue stress on your robots.

[TriDragon]

@Karthik Thank you guys very much for listening

[Gear_Geeks]

Why not PTC check all motors on all robots then put tamper-proof tape across the seams. Also allow teams to get additional motors PTC checked with seals across every motor that passes so they can have extras. Then every robot that competes must have tamper-proof tape on all motors and will not need subsequent re-checks. Teams will have the ability to change motors, if needed, using the extras that were checked. Any robot that does not have the tamper-proof tape on a motor is DQed. This would require a little more work up-front but would eliminate disruptive PTC tests later.

If a team needs to make a change to an already tested motor, there would need to be a re-test station open during Worlds

[JustinM]

@Gear Geeks

Why not PTC check all motors on all robots then put tamper-proof tape across the seams. Also allow teams to get additional motors PTC checked with seals across every motor that passes so they can have extras. Then every robot that competes must have tamper-proof tape on all motors and will not need subsequent re-checks. Teams will have the ability to change motors, if needed, using the extras that were checked. Any robot that does not have the tamper-proof tape on a motor is DQed. This would require a little more work up-front but would eliminate disruptive PTC tests later.

If a team needs to make a change to an already tested motor, there would need to be a re-test station open during Worlds

There is only so much time and so many volunteers at worlds. I just dont think those restrictions would allow for this

[Tesla529]

@JustinM

There is only so much time and so many volunteers at worlds. I just dont think those restrictions would allow for this

Plus there are only a handful of field technicians allowed to do it. We would have doubled our inspection time at World’s this year had we done that.

[artsy.andrew]

Key problem: not enough techs, too many teams.

The ideas would definitely work, but theres just too many teams and motors to go through.

[n5vei]

One of my teams got checked right before their match in the division finals and got in such a hurry to make it that the polarity got mixed up and cost them the match. I agree that it needs to be done, but the timing is horrible.

[Gear_Geeks]

Without this, there’s really no way of getting around having someone get their motor testing, pass, then switch it with a motor that has the PTC bypassed. That’s what really bugs me about the whole PTC testing. It is still so easy to get around for someone so inclined.

[TriDragon]

@Gear Geeks

Why not PTC check all motors on all robots then put tamper-proof tape across the seams. Also allow teams to get additional motors PTC checked with seals across every motor that passes so they can have extras. Then every robot that competes must have tamper-proof tape on all motors and will not need subsequent re-checks. Teams will have the ability to change motors, if needed, using the extras that were checked. Any robot that does not have the tamper-proof tape on a motor is DQed. This would require a little more work up-front but would eliminate disruptive PTC tests later.

Many of us leave the motor bases attached to the frame and zip tie the motors, so they can quickly be changed if they break. It is sometime hard to get to the motor base screws dependent upon your configuration. Also, some teams have different gearing between skills and tournament play and drop differently geared motors in with the zip ties.

[Gear_Geeks]

@TriDragon

Many of us leave the motor bases attached to the frame and zip tie the motors, so they can quickly be changed if they break. It is sometime hard to get to the motor base screws dependent upon your configuration. Also, some teams have different gearing between skills and tournament play and drop differently geared motors in with the zip ties.

I get it, but this just shows how toothless the current motor testing is. If it is so easy to change a motor gear, it is just as easy to swap out a motor that has its PTC modified. Then swap it back later before testing.

[AppleDavidJeans]

@Gear Geeks

I get it, but this just shows how toothless the current motor testing is. If it is so easy to change a motor gear, it is just as easy to swap out a motor that has its PTC modified. Then swap it back later before testing.

That’s the point of the checks being random. The testees don’t see them coming, and will be surprised when the inspector comes up to them and says, “I need to check your PTCs please.” For eliminations, matches and skills (basically anything that goes on the official competition record), they can be tested immediately upon coming off the field so that the teams don’t have time to change out motors in time for the PTC test. With after-the-fact testing, the teams will always have the specter of PTC testing looming when they compete, knowing they will get DQed if they’re caught playing with a modified motor.

The point us, given the limited resources available for PTC testing, the best approach to preventing teams from messing with PTCs is not making it hard for them to do so, but to make it seem like it’s just too risky to mess with them in terms of getting away with it, i.e. give teams a lot of negative incentives so that they Are very discouraged from messing the PTCs. This can be done without making things too intrusive by combining a bunch of techniques such as immediate after-the fact testing for any kind of competitive activity, a high test rate (25% to 33% chance across 567 teams ought to do the trick, but it can be as high as the techs can handle), zero-tolerance policy to modified motors, etc. There’s no need to be too restrictive up front, as long as there is a lot of “behind-the-scenes” combat to the cheating problem.

[Gear_Geeks]

@AppleDavidJeans

That’s the point of the checks being random. The testees don’t see them coming, and will be surprised when the inspector comes up to them and says, “I need to check your PTCs please.” For eliminations, matches and skills (basically anything that goes on the official competition record), they can be tested immediately upon coming off the field so that the teams don’t have time to change out motors in time for the PTC test. With after-the-fact testing, the teams will always have the specter of PTC testing looming when they compete, knowing they will get DQed if they’re caught playing with a modified motor.

The point us, given the limited resources available for PTC testing, the best approach to preventing teams from messing with PTCs is not making it hard for them to do so, but to make it seem like it’s just too risky to mess with them in terms of getting away with it, i.e. give teams a lot of negative incentives so that they Are very discouraged from messing the PTCs. This can be done without making things too intrusive by combining a bunch of techniques such as immediate after-the fact testing for any kind of competitive activity, a high test rate (25% to 33% chance across 567 teams ought to do the trick, but it can be as high as the techs can handle), zero-tolerance policy to modified motors, etc. There’s no need to be too restrictive up front, as long as there is a lot of “behind-the-scenes” combat to the cheating problem.

I get this. Testing the motors after a match seems like the easy answer. Since it hasn’t been done, I assumed there was a reason for it (like you need a fairly cooled off motor). If that isn’t true, yes, all teams should be tested after their final match before coming off the field. There has to be a better, less intrusive, more effective way to do PTC tests.

[Aponthis]

@Gear Geeks

I get this. Testing the motors after a match seems like the easy answer. Since it hasn’t been done, I assumed there was a reason for it (like you need a fairly cooled off motor). If that isn’t true, yes, all teams should be tested after their final match before coming off the field. There has to be a better, less intrusive, more effective way to do PTC tests.

You shouldn’t need a cooled-off motor. The whole point is to see if it stops when heated up.

[AppleDavidJeans]

@Gear Geeks

I get this. Testing the motors after a match seems like the easy answer. Since it hasn’t been done, I assumed there was a reason for it (like you need a fairly cooled off motor). If that isn’t true, yes, all teams should be tested after their final match before coming off the field. There has to be a better, less intrusive, more effective way to do PTC tests.

The testers are looking for if the motor will stall or not. That can be done regardless of whether the PTC is hot or cool. It’ll already stall if it’s hot.

I wasn’t referring to all teams being tested, just as many as the techs can handle. You also don’t want to test them all at the final match because that’s when the cheaters swap in their clean motors. You want to preserve the surprise element by testing different teams at different matches.