Answered: Did these balls get scored?

[chrisham]

We have some questions about when a ball is regarded as scored and/or out of play

In the attached photos we ruled that none of the balls in the basket were scored as they were touching a robot of the alliance that the scoring zone belongs to. This is fairly clear in the ‘Scored’ rule.

What would be the case if one of the balls in the basket was not touching the mechanism of the robot, was within the scoring zone but was held in place by other balls that were touching the mechanism? {The top ball in photo P1040561.jpg shows a ball that could have been in this category if it had been in the scoring zone}

Scored – A ball is scored in a scoring zone if the entire ball is within the rectangular space defined by the edges of the scoring zone, and not touching a robot of the alliance that the scoring zone belongs to. Any large ball which is not legally introduced into play counts as being scored in the opponents scoring zone.
Note: A scoring zone extends infinitely perpendicular to the playing field surface within the scoring zone boundaries.

When does a ball get scored? The simple approach would be to say that as a ball travels from one scoring zone to another it goes from being scored, to out of play (over the center wall) and then back to being scored. In this case all the balls are effectively out of play as they have left one scoring area but have not yet met the conditions required to consider them scored on the other side of the wall. (still touching the robot)
Is this the intent of the rules or do the balls in the hopper count against the robot storing them as it failed to get rid of its load?

Scoring Zone – One of two (2) rectangular areas, one (1) for each alliance, in which teams can score small, medium, or large balls. Scoring zones are defined by the inner edges of the playing field walls, the edges of the center wall and the outer edges of the goals. Each alliance scoring zone is across the center wall from their alliance station.
Note: The center wall and goals are not part of either scoring zone.

The mechanism of the robot in the photos is deliberately crossing the field border. Rule <S2> says not to penalize robots for having mechanisms that inadvertently cross the field border but this design relies on substantial crossing as part of its action to dump the balls.
We read the intent of the rules is to allow this as long as the foam surface is not touched and you do not want to limit robot design. Is this correct? If it is correct then is there a case where crossing the wall would be considered too much?

<S2> If a robot goes completely out-of-bounds (outside the playing field), it will be disabled for the remainder of the match.
Note: The intent is NOT to penalize robots for having mechanisms that inadvertently cross the field border during normal game play.

Rule <G4> says that balls that leave the field are considered out of play. Are we correct in assuming that if some or all of the balls in the same hopper were to go out over the back wall or a side wall then those balls would be out of play or does contact with the robot keep them in play?

If they are out of play then the hopper cannot be brought back into the field (unless it is emptied as you cannot return balls to the field. Is this correct?

[quote]
<G4> Balls that leave the playing field are considered out of play. These objects will NOT be returned to the field.
[/quote]

[JVN]

@ChrisHam

In the attached photos we ruled that none of the balls in the basket were scored as they were touching a robot of the alliance that the scoring zone belongs to. This is fairly clear in the ‘Scored’ rule.

Okay… based on the definitions of “Scored”, “Ball”, “Center Wall”, “Locked Up”, “Goal”, “Robot”, “Alliance”, “Scoring Zone” also based on the Game Rules listed in the “Scoring” section, and also based on rules <G4>, and <SG4>…

Here are ALL the possible ball configurations, and the way they should be scored:

[LIST]
*]Touching a BLUE Robot in the BLUE Scoring Zone - NO POINTS
*]Touching a BLUE Robot in NO Scoring Zone - NO POINTS
*]Touching a BLUE Robot in the RED Scoring Zone - RED POINTS
[/LIST]

[LIST]
*]Touching NO Robot in the BLUE Scoring Zone - BLUE Points
*]Touching NO Robot in NO Scoring Zone - NO POINTS
*]Touching NO Robot in the RED Scoring Zone - RED POINTS
[/LIST]

[LIST]
*]Touching a RED Robot in the RED Scoring Zone - NO POINTS
*] Touching a RED Robot in NO Scoring Zone - NO POINTS
*] Touching a RED Robot in the BLUE Scoring Zone - BLUE POINTS
[/LIST]
Balls “out of play” refer to balls outside the field perimeter where robots cannot get them. These balls would be in “NO Scoring Zone”.

@ChrisHam

What would be the case if one of the balls in the basket was not touching the mechanism of the robot, was within the scoring zone but was held in place by other balls that were touching the mechanism? {The top ball in photo P1040561.jpg shows a ball that could have been in this category if it had been in the scoring zone}

There is no mention in the rules about balls in a basket. The rules only mention touching. The ball is either touching the robot, or it isn’t. Based on this, refer to the above list of ball scoring configurations to determine how the ball should be scored.

@ChrisHam

When does a ball get scored? The simple approach would be to say that as a ball travels from one scoring zone to another it goes from being scored, to out of play (over the center wall) and then back to being scored. In this case all the balls are effectively out of play as they have left one scoring area but have not yet met the conditions required to consider them scored on the other side of the wall. (still touching the robot)
Is this the intent of the rules or do the balls in the hopper count against the robot storing them as it failed to get rid of its load?

First off, you are misusing the term “out of play”. Balls are only considered “out of play” when they have left the playingfield, and robots cannot get them. These balls will not be returned to the field. See <G4>.

Balls are scored at the end of the match per <G7>.
At this time, balls will either be:

[LIST]
*]Scored for Red
*]Scored for Blue
*]Not Scored (out of play balls are considered not scored).
[/LIST]
It does not matter what state transitions the balls make during the match, it only matters what state they have when the match is scored. See the list of possible ball configurations above, and score accordingly.

Yes, a ball in a hopper can be scored against the robot holding it depending on where that ball “ends the match”.

@ChrisHam

The mechanism of the robot in the photos is deliberately crossing the field border. Rule <S2> says not to penalize robots for having mechanisms that inadvertently cross the field border but this design relies on substantial crossing as part of its action to dump the balls.
We read the intent of the rules is to allow this as long as the foam surface is not touched and you do not want to limit robot design. Is this correct? If it is correct then is there a case where crossing the wall would be considered too much?

This mechanism seems acceptable. The only rule which talks about crossing the wall is <SG4> which states:

Robots are prohibited from intentionally contacting any of the tiles in their scoring zone. Robots violating this rule will be disabled at the discretion of the head-referee.

If you don’t touch the tiles on your side of the field, you can extend over the wall as much as you want. If you touch the tiles, the referee would make a determination about whether you should be disabled. The referee would decide whether the contact was an accident, or whether your strategy was deliberate enough that you should be penalized.

I don’t see any risk of the robot in the images you posted touching the foam tiles.

@ChrisHam

Rule <G4> says that balls that leave the field are considered out of play. Are we correct in assuming that if some or all of the balls in the same hopper were to go out over the back wall or a side wall then those balls would be out of play or does contact with the robot keep them in play?

“Out of Play” is not defined in the manual, but we can use common sense to infer that if a ball is in a robot, then it is still “in play”. The robot is still playing with it…

This rule means that if a ball leaves the field and rolls away from a robot, the field reset people won’t pick it up and put it back… nothing more.

@ChrisHam

If they are out of play then the hopper cannot be brought back into the field (unless it is emptied as you cannot return balls to the field. Is this correct?

See above. Play on!

[JVN]

I moved this thread into the Official VRC Clean Sweep Q&A. It seemed like you wanted an official ruling, not a community discussion.

-John

[chrisham]

Wow!

Thank you for a very detailed response.

As it usually does with VEX we are glad that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) principal applies.