Backside Autonomous


#2

I’ve seen ones that flip all the back floor caps and shoot many balls, and alliance park, although I cannot say for certain how many balls and which flags were toggled.


#3

I’ve seen one that intakes the ball underneath the cap, shoots the high and middle center flags, then stacks a cap. It was very effective because the stacked cap remained for the whole match essentially garunteeing them 2 extra points by the end of the match.


#4

The best backside autonomous I’ve seen so far is 9605A.

Here is semifinals and finals from the Signature Event at WPI:


#5

Maybe I’m just being dumb, but why isn’t 9605A possessing four balls the moment the robot picks up the cap, or possessing three after raising the cap slightly?


#6

thats a good thought. Personally i have never seen a robot get called for this in either auton or driver so I don’t think it matters too much. Its not really match affecting in the sense that the balls give you an advantage.


#7

The most relevant Q&A for this situation is: https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA/151

But it is ambiguous, as one paragraph suggests that autonomous in question would not be legal:

Lifting that Cap, such that the two Balls were lifted with it, would be considered Possession.

And the very next paragraph would lead to the opposite conclusion that the autonomous is legal, since balls fall off the cap when the robot turns:

The relevant Referee Training video also uses the following guideline: if the Game Object turns with the Robot as the Robot turns, then it is probably being Possessed.

This would leave the question of legality to the head ref interpretation. If it was up to me, I would rule it legal since those two balls are not used for scoring directly or indirectly.

It is certainly more legal than the case when robots accidentally intake third ball and then expected to eject it as soon as possible.


#8

Center and cross-court flags, only worked once but it worked


#9

Sniping flags was the best at Ohio State.


#10

I had one at State that we only ran once but it shot the middle center flag, stacked a cap, flipped a cap while picking up a ball, shot the opposing sides flag, and then parked.


#11

Our girls shoot their color high flag, take the ball from under a cap, flip another cap, shoot the center high flag and park


#12

If the autonomous is designed to perform in a way that performing as intended requires breaking the rules, they will lose auton when caught, and will continue to until they fix it. However they are not transporting the balls in question, so lifting the cap to knock off the balls off but failing and instead moving one of the balls a foot in a way that favors neither team is arguable. That is a really hard ruling, as the auton appears to be legal in the spirit of the rules.


#13

our back auton picks up a ball & flips a cap. Shoots the top two middle flags and alliance parks for a total of 8 points. It was one of the highest scoring Back Autons in AR


#14

Possessing more than 2 balls at anytime is illegal, even for a short amount of time, regardless if there is intent or no advantage gained. It’s no different than crossings the line for a super small amount of time. Over the line is over the line, and possessing 4 balls is possessing 4 balls.


#15

Yes, with the rules being ambiguous it is up to the head ref if this would be legal. But if I was reffing, I would have to first DQ any robot who (accidentally or by design) intakes more than two balls and then ejects extra. The difference is that with 9605A it is visible, but if a robot possesses a third ball deep inside its intake path it is hard to notice during fast pace game, unless it shoots three balls and flips three flags on the live stream like 169A did during the VA Signature Event.

If you argue that @Brian_9605A auton is illegal, I will counter-argue than it is not that hard to design a robot that is physically incapable to intake more than two balls. And, therefore, any robot that is not designed with such safeguard, had to be warned and subsequently DQed if it intakes a third ball and starts moving with it before discharging it.

The first thing that Brian should do is, probably, post an official Q&A asking about legality of his specific auton. Then he could add some sort of flexible antennae or a lexan triangular piece that would push the balls off the cap as the robot moves to pick it up. The final option would be modify autonomous routine to shoot at center flag pole before he picks up the cap, but that would potentially decrease the effectiveness of the auton, because you want to flip center flags as late as possible.


#16

6403a has an autonomous that stacked a cap then sniped two flags and parked at state


#17

I very much disagree with anybody who says that my back auto is illegal because of ball controlling. There are numerous Q&As about controlling the motion of >2 balls while driving around during the driver control period, all of which say that it is expected that you might have to drive through multiple balls during normal game play. It is very clear that I am making no attempt to control the motion of these balls, so I think it is analogous to flipping a cap with balls on it. Some teams, however, lift the cap and attempt to load the balls into their robot, which would be considered controlling the motion of the balls.This is exactly what I do during the autonomous period, so I don’t think I have any issues with the legality of it.

On a side note, I also think that my back auto is the best in the world :stuck_out_tongue:


#18

Wow! That’s epic auton!


#19

I love this so much too!


#20

Thank you! I worked very hard on it lol.


#21

That is one awesome auton. But I do think you need to be careful about possession. I think a ref could call it based on how long the ball stays on the cap.

“Momentarily flipping a Cap, such that the two Balls on top of it fall off, would not be considered Possession. Lifting that Cap, such that the two Balls were lifted with it, would be considered Possession.”