Best Overall Design for Tower Takeover

At this point in time, I believe there are 5 overarching designs for Tower Takeover robots:

  1. Simple Tray (ex. 1727G, 8059A-SingVex finalists) Can’t stack on top of stacks, places in towers by pushing the top cube farther up.

  2. Complex Tray (ex. 448X, 8059K-SingVex finalists, 98060T-China winners) Can’t stack on top of stacks, places in towers with intake sides on a rotating arm.

  3. Tube Lift (ex. 8066Y, 8066C-SingVex winners, 62, 9605) Stacks on top of stacks, places in towers out of the tube.

  4. Tilting Tube Lift (ex. 4442X-Mark Leon winners) Stacks on top of stacks, places in towers out of the tube, potentially faster than tube lift.

  5. Tilting Tray Lift (ex. 4142B-Mark Leon winners) Doesn’t usually stack on top of stacks, places in towers off of tray.

  6. Other (a design we haven’t seen yet)

Of these 6, which do you believe will win at early tournaments?

  • Simple Tray
  • Complex Tray
  • Tube Lift
  • Tilting Tube Lift
  • Tilting Tray Lift
  • Other

0 voters

Of these 6, which do you think will become the meta/do the best at tournaments later on?

  • Simple Tray
  • Complex Tray
  • Tube Lift
  • Tilting Tube Lift
  • Tilting Tray Lift
  • Other

0 voters

Thanks for voting and good luck in your season!

3 Likes

I don’t think one single design will become meta but I think a pair of a smaller tilting tray that stacks on top of preexisting stacks and a complex tray will become dominant

5 Likes

one of the interesting thing about this years game is that you will likely not want a robot just like yours for a partner. 2 different robots seem to compliment each other more than 2 of the same robots. I feel alliances of lifts and trays will be the strongest.

10 Likes

Agreed. Something along the lines of one that’s better at towers and one that’s better at stacks. Really look forward to seeing it play out.

8 Likes

I think cooperation between a complex tray bot and a bot similar to 9605 or 62’s ri3d robot will be extremely competitive. Personally I don’t think a long tube with two sprockets at bottom will be competitive, because the height of stack that kind robot can build is greatly limited by how tall their lift can extend. I think rollers for reorientation + passive vertical intake will be the best design for robots that intended to stack on top of existed stacks.

4 Likes

would trays cause damage to the field?

I see no reason a tray would cause field damage… or any other designs we’ve seen.

1 Like

Right now it is just tray tilters and vertical stackers. There’s gotta be something else that works?!

1 Like

Clamps work too. And a combination of 2 or more of these 3 basic ideas

has anyone combined all 3 yet?

Trying

2 Likes

Vertical trays could be possible

I’d like to start a poll on what you think the best alliances will be.
First some bot definitions:
Tray - The side roller and tilter robots. has no lift. Most can score towers by popping a cube out the back of the tray.
Complex Tray - A tray bot with some good method of tower scoring, like the arms on 448x’s Ri3D.
Tube Lift - a robot with a lift, and a tube or hopper, like 62’s Ri3D.
Tray Lift - A tilting tray with rollers on a lift.

Which alliance do you see winning early season tournaments?

  • Tray + Tray
  • Complex Tray + Tray
  • Complex Tray + Complex Tray
  • Tray + Tube Lift
  • Complex Tray + Tube Lift
  • Tube Lift + Tube Lift
  • Tray Lift + Tray
  • Tray Lift + Complex Tray
  • Tray Lift + Tube Lift
  • Tray Lift + Tray Lift
  • Other

0 voters

Which alliance do you see winning mid and late season tournaments?

  • Tray + Tray
  • Complex Tray + Tray
  • Complex Tray + Complex Tray
  • Tray + Tube Lift
  • Complex Tray + Tube Lift
  • Tube Lift + Tube Lift
  • Tray Lift + Tray
  • Tray Lift + Complex Tray
  • Tray Lift + Tube Lift
  • Tray Lift + Tray Lift
  • Other

0 voters

2 Likes

In my opinion, the most ideal alliance comes down between a complex tray + tube lift, and tray lift + tray lift. the reason i think complex tray + tube lift is better, is that there is no way to make a tray AND a lift and have them both be as powerful as a tray/lift on a specialized tray/lift bot. Therefore, the specialized bots will perform better. But I want to hear all of your opinions on this matter.

5 Likes

In my opinion, the most important things for a bot to do in order are:

  1. Intake cubes
  2. Make new stacks
  3. Score and descore towers
  4. Add to existing stacks

Most of the match will be spent intaking cubes, so you’ll want bots that can do that quickly. For this, side spinner intakes are pretty much a necessity. Top-down intakes, like you’d find on a tube lift, aren’t going to be as fast. Trays win in this situation, especially those with more powerful 2-motor intakes.

Making new stacks is the next most important part, and ideally you wouldn’t have to lift your intake/cube holder up over the deposited stack (for the sake of speed). Because of this, trays win here too.

Scoring and descoring towers is a tricky one. Here, the simple tray is at a definite disadvantage, as it can only score by letting cubes fall out the back of the tray into a tower. Cube tubes, complex trays, and tray lifts are pretty even here though.

Finally, scoring on existing stacks. This isn’t as important as the rest, as with good planning, this shouldn’t be needed very much if at all. However, the tray lift and cube tube are probably about even here if you account for the time taken to line up. It’d be hard to line up the tray stacker well.

Overall, the tray lift is just as good as an average tray (with the notable difference of having a less powerful 1-motor intake) at stacking, and just as good as a cube tube at placing or descoring from towers.

I think the idea of two specialized bots on an alliance is interesting, but not very practical. Two well-designed tray lifts can be just as efficient at stacking as a complex tray and just as efficient at towers as a cube tube. With two identical robots, each one can stay in its own corner of the field for stacking and towers, reducing the time spend driving around the field. It also makes an alliance less susceptible to pinning, as the unpinned robot can do both jobs (towers and stacking).

For the sake of argument, let’s look at some potential motor breakdowns:

Complex Tray:
4m Drive
2m Intake
1m Tilt
1m Intake Pivot

Cube Tube:
4m Drive
2m Lift
2m Intake

Tray Lift:
4m Drive
2m Lift
1m Intake
1m Tray Pivot

The tray on a tray-lift will be almost identical to a complex tray (with the obvious 1m intake caveat, but I don’t think that will pose a huge problem assuming the tray is slippery enough).

The lift will be 2-motor, just like on a cube tube. So it will be just as fast.

I honestly don’t see what is keeping the tray-lift from being just as powerful as the other designs at their respective strengths. It’s the best of both worlds in my opinion.

8 Likes

What I see happening is one tray-lift only stacking cubes and one tray-lift only doing towers, which means the entire other aspect of the robots functionality goes mostly unused during that match. So for that match, that’s a waste of space and motor power. But, tray-lifts have more strategy options, and are more likely to be able to work well with their qual partners. So Its a trade off between a slight efficiency increase which can make the difference in elims, and more versatile strategies, which can make the difference in quals. Tray-lifts will theoretically do better in quals, while specialized bots will do better in elims, but that may not be the case, due to the fact that it will likely be much easier to build a competitive tray or lift, then it is to build an equally competitive tray-lift bot.

4 Likes

Trust me, one motor intake is a bigger disadvantage than you think

5 Likes

I think the strategy of one robot only stacking cubes and the other only doing towers is not the best way to go about doing it. Dual-purpose robots can stack when it makes sense, do towers when it makes sense, and play defense when it makes sense to do so. There’s nothing that makes splitting tasks between robots inherently more efficient than having two dual-purpose robots.

I suppose this is somewhat similar to how most Turning Point bots could both flip caps and shoot flags. A dedicated cap-flipper bot and a dedicated shooter bot was never really done; everyone just did both. This was because robots could focus on shooting and flip caps when they were nearby, just as Tower Takeover bots can focus on stacking and do towers when it’s convinent.

1 Like

We haven’t seen many examples of this. There have obviously been a few designs, but I would hesitate to jump to conclusions about them just yet. Trays will get slippier, intakes will get more efficient, and pushing cubes up the tray will generally become easier and less requiring of a second motor.

Personally, I’m thinking of making my tray partially out of Delrin due to the incredibly low CoF…

this was because of the uselessness of flipped caps, and the nature of the flags.
in turning point, one robot couldn’t control flags by themselves, but this year, since there is no back and forth gameplay when it comes to stacking, one robot should be able to stack fine by themselves. but I do agree that robots need some amount of versatility, that’s why complex trays are way better than simple trays, they can do towers just as well as any lift.

1 Like

Manipulating the towers isn’t going to take the whole match though. Both robots are going to spend most of their time stacking. It seems like a stacking-optimal design would be best because of this, provided it could also score towers well. Cube tubes take too long to make stacks to be useful for this, which would significantly slow down an alliance that wanted to take full advantage of having two robots. On the other hand, trays on lifts are just as good as a cube tube for towers, and almost as good as a complex tray for stacking.

2 Likes