Clarification on Rule G9 - entanglement/pinning

Please could you comment on the following. In the rules we have G9

During a recent match a (red) robot reached over the wall to drop balls over it. A (blue) robot drove up to the wall to block the first robot. So far this is perfectally acceptable game play.

The (blue) robot then found that it was pinning the (red) robot and stayed in the blocking/pinning position position until 5 seconds before the end of the match when it moved back and then forward again to repin the (red) robot. In the last second it again reversed away from the (red) robot.

This pinning lasted around 1min 15 seconds. The (red) robot could not move and as it was the higher scorer of the (red) alliance the (red) alliance lost the match. The (red) robot was obviously trying to get away but the (blue) robot was just sitting there not doing anything.

My questions are:-

How do judges determine that the (blue) robots action was deliberate entanglement or not. Short of stopping the match and letting judges drive the robots to see if they were both entangeled or not.

How long should such pinning be allowed to occur before an instruction to disengage is given?

Really, that’s going to be up to the judges. However, the Red Alliance probably should have raised the issue with the judges. For the first one minute and fifteen seconds, there was a possibility that the blue robot could not pull away either. However, once it pulled away and came back, Red should have known something was wrong, and could have reported it.

I’m a little confused here. “Pinning” generally means that one robot has impeded the movement of another by physically holding it against a field element or another robot. I don’t know how one robot could pin another in Clean Sweep without violating the rule about not crossing over the wall completely. If you were seeing “entanglement” over the top of the wall, and it was intentional, the referee should have called it right away.

From the Clean Sweep rules:

[INDENT]<G9> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of robots are not in the spirit of the VEX Competition and are not allowed. However, VEX Clean Sweep is an interactive game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage is ruled to be intentional, the offending team may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a team being disqualified from the remainder of the competition.[/INDENT]

he means that the red robot had a thing that reached over the wall and the blue robot pinned the “reaching over” part against the middle wall
but since the they allow 5 seconds of pinning, the blue robot moved back a few inches and “repin” before the red robot could get its arm back out, should that be fair?
they are following the 5 second rule but i think his/her intent was a bad one

This is a novel situation, and I would post it on the Official Clean Sweep Q&A. It could be worded something like:

“Red robot’s arm is over the wall. Blue robot pushes the arm against the center wall and red robot cannot move. Is this pinning, entanglement, or something else?”

Thanks for the replies. Murdomeek describes the situation better than I did. :slight_smile:
except that the initial pinning lasted for more than a min before the robot moved back.

This is not a complaint just something that we may need to consider clarifying before we get to really important matches as I am sure it could happen again.

Perhaps one of our kind moderators could move the post as Rick Tyler suggests. It is fun to discuss the twists and turns of each game in the open forum as that way we all learn. The clarity of vision that you guys have always helps.


Here it is:

Answered… does that response make sense? Judging “intent” is always a tough concept to convey effectively.

o snap!
pinning is LEGAL?!
hmm i wonder if a team would use this as a strategy
one of those “crazy-out-of-the-world” robots that pwn^^

and what if there was a team that had a “claw”
that reached over and grabbed a robot within reach
so they would “pin” the robot from moving
would that still be legal?

If you read my response to the Q&A…

One robot grabbing another would be considered entanglement. If this entanglement is ruled to be intentional that robot would be disqualified per <G9>.

I hope no teams out there are considering strategies like this. Wouldn’t it make more sense to spend your effort on something else?