Dallas Division Set up

[pjohn1959]

From the e-mail that was sent out:

For the main competition, the teams will be divided into two divisions of approximately 140 teams each. Teams will only play with/against the teams in their division in the qualifying rounds.
. There will be 6 main tournament competition fields, 3 skills challenge fields, 1 college challenge field and 8 practice fields in the pit area

each team will still get 6 full qualifying matches in addition to 4 official skills challenge rounds if you wish to enter those.

With 140 teams in each division, and each team ONLY getting 6 qualification matches, we could see 20+ teams that would be undefeated. This makes ranking points very important.

There will be a lot of good teams that will not make the elimination rounds because of this.

I was hoping for a set up similar to FRC, with 4 divisions (70 teams each) and at least 7 matches per division.

[Rick_TYler]

@pjohn1959

There will be a lot of good teams that will not make the elimination rounds because of this.

I was hoping for a set up similar to FRC, with 4 divisions (70 teams each) and at least 7 matches per division.

First, I wanted to say that this email is full of conjecture, extrapolation, and other non-official musings. I do NOT know any of this for a fact, but started with the assumption that IFI is full of robot competition experts (Morrella, Karthik, V-Neun, Kressly, and the company founders whose names escape me at the moment) who want us to have fun.

I had identical concerns and then I realized that IFI is dealing with unexpected success. I’m sure they expected at most 200 teams this year, not 280, and their volunteer staffing is nowhere near FIRST’s. Running four divisions requires at least 75% more help than two, and (I speculate) they just don’t have the volunteers.

It will definitely require the top teams to carefully manage their scoring. At least there aren’t any penalties that will change the score at the end of the match – no need to run up the score to cover 10 or 20 points in unexpected points.

I think the biggest source of disappointment is going to come from bad scouting. With the huge number of teams to scout and the relative inexperience of the VRC community, I’m afraid that most alliance selection will be based on qualifications standings and school affiliation, not on thorough evaluation of potential alliance partners. Frankly, the scouting and alliance selections for VRC (and FTC) events I’ve attended has been nowhere near as sophisticated as it is in FRC. I suppose this will come in time, but for now alliance picking is generally not that well done.

Even at FRC in Atlanta, the teams only get seven matches in qualifying, so I don’t think VRC is doing all that badly. I’d prefer 8 or even 10, but we can live with this. I just wonder which teams will fill out the other 43 spaces available in the eliminations rounds.

[pjohn1959]

@Rick TYler

I had identical concerns and then I realized that IFI is dealing with unexpected success. I’m sure they expected at most 200 teams this year, not 280, and their volunteer staffing is nowhere near FIRST’s. Running four divisions requires at least 75% more help than two, and (I speculate) they just don’t have the volunteers.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. As a volunteer at 2 regionals and the Championships this year, I saw what it takes to put on an event, however I would expect IFI to have been better prepared for this. I know that they want to keep an upper hand over FTC. I think that VEX is still years ahead of FTC, and wants to continue grow. I know that we are talking about adding a second tournament here in Houston for 2010.

I think the biggest source of disappointment is going to come from bad scouting. With the huge number of teams to scout and the relative inexperience of the VRC community, I’m afraid that most alliance selection will be based on qualifications standings and school affiliation, not on thorough evaluation of potential alliance partners.

I am concerned about the teams from China who tend to pick within themselves. This would definately leave out a lot of deserving teams.

I just wonder which teams will fill out the other 43 spaces available in the eliminations rounds.

Make that 42…

[corpralchee]

Ah 42 what a magical number.

I’m very excited to see what will happen. One of the concerns that was raised is that alliance picking may become a repeat of last year.* To solve this problem maybe we as a community can come together and when it starts to look like we know what teams will be choosing go to those teams ourselves and explain what will happen. If they haven’t been scouting maybe we share scouting info with them.

*Last year in LA many of the top teams did not understand how alliance pairing would work. Thus one team declined expecting they could be picked by the next team. We then spent about 30min on the field explaining the process through a translator.

[pjohn1959]

@corpralchee

*Last year in LA many of the top teams did not understand how alliance pairing would work. Thus one team declined expecting they could be picked by the next team. We then spent about 30min on the field explaining the process through a translator.

I heard about that. But they still made it into the finals, didn’t they?

[corpralchee]

I don’t remember what exactly happened. The picking teams were still the same. They may have restarted over the entire process. The problem only happened when it came time for the second alliance to make their first pick.

[Lmui]

Personally, the way I see it, the problems about deserving teams not making it out of the round robin could be to have 16 alliances created per division, 48 teams per division for 96/280 teams to the playoffs.

Either just expand the playoffs to include a larger bracket with an extra set of rounds or else have odd numbered teams face the odd numbered teams in a subdivision playoff and the same thing happens to even.

[The_Wizard]

@Lmui

Personally, the way I see it, the problems about deserving teams not making it out of the round robin could be to have 16 alliances created per division, 48 teams per division for 96/280 teams to the playoffs.

Now that’s an idea

[pjohn1959]

@Lmui

Personally, the way I see it, the problems about deserving teams not making it out of the round robin could be to have 16 alliances created per division, 48 teams per division for 96/280 teams to the playoffs.

This would be nice, but don’t think it will happen.

My biggest cause for concern, is that if only 24 teams make the eliminations, then you have 116 teams from EACH division (232 total), who have traveled a long way to Dallas, just pack up and go home after playing only 6 matches. If you do the math, that means that those teams will be spending close to $1000 per match (including all travel costs, entry fees, etc.), and not get a chance to get into the elims.

[DaveF]

My biggest cause for concern, is that if only 24 teams make the eliminations, then you have 116 teams from EACH division (232 total), who have traveled a long way to Dallas, just pack up and go home after playing only 6 matches. If you do the math, that means that those teams will be spending close to $1000 per match (including all travel costs, entry fees, etc.), and not get a chance to get into the elims.

My view is that I hope teams don’t see it this way, because it really misses the point of these type of events. Not everyone can get into the finals and not everyone can win a trophy. Teams should be going for the entire experience and have a great time with friends (new and old), whether they make it to the finals, or not. They should not view it as a waste of money where they didn’t get into the elims, and just packed up to go go home. There is much more to it.

As for my team, we did well in events in the MD and N. VA area, but realize we are going up against the best of the best. We will do our best, have fun and if we somewhow find a way to the elims, that’s great. But most of all, we are going to enjoy the experience- it is not just 6 matches but 3+ days of fun and learning.

[pjohn1959]

@cc4hldr

We will do our best, have fun and if we some how find a way to the elims, that’s great. But most of all, we are going to enjoy the experience- it is not just 6 matches but 3+ days of fun and learning.

I couldn’t agree with you more. We are attending for the very same reason. However, I guess my ‘practical’ side comes out in this matter.

We have attended 2 other World Championships, with the knowledge that we would probably not get to the elims, but the chances were far greater at those competitions that what we will see in Dallas.

I wish only good luck and great times for all teams that will be attending the VEX World Championships.

[Rick_TYler]

@pjohn1959

This would be nice, but don’t think it will happen.

My biggest cause for concern, is that if only 24 teams make the eliminations, then you have 116 teams from EACH division (232 total), who have traveled a long way to Dallas, just pack up and go home after playing only 6 matches. If you do the math, that means that those teams will be spending close to $1000 per match (including all travel costs, entry fees, etc.), and not get a chance to get into the elims.

I would rather see more divisions, with more more teams having a chance to play more. We have no disagreement there.

We are traveling about as far as any other North American team, and our cost is about $650 per person. I don’t think it changes your point, Paul, but it doesn’t quite cost $1,000 unless you fly over water.

It’s more than just six matches, too. Teams that participate in both Skills Challenges get six (or is it eight?) more runs. That’s an opportunity that’s unique to VRC. I know my “senior” teams are working harder on these than they are on the main competition. They seem to think they are really ready for the main tournament and want to work on other opportunities.

Also, Paul wrote, “If you do the math, that means that those teams will be spending close to $1000 per match (including all travel costs, entry fees, etc.), and not get a chance to get into the elims.” Every one of those teams has a *chance *to get into the elims, a lot of them just won’t make it.

On balance, I’d rather be IFI dealing with the problems of being more popular than they expected than some other programs trying to fix much more substantial problems No matter what happens in Dallas this year, I strongly believe that IFI will address them for next season. It will be fun to hash this out on this forum after Dallas. I have some ideas for how to handle a VRC season with 5,000 teams, but I think that can wait until May.

I’m not sure how VRC will shake out in some ways. We all know that FIRST FRC has an elite group of teams that show up at their Championships every year. How many of these teams are there? 50? 100? Realistically, perhaps 50 of the other 1,600 hundred teams in FRC have a shot at making it into the elimination rounds on one of the FRC divisions. I think we could both name 20 FRC teams in our area that will never be an alliance captain at our local regional, would only ever go to Atlanta as a third alliance member, and have no real chance to play on Saturday afternoon. Many of those teams would just be ecstatic to be there at all, even if they do spend thousands of dollars to just play seven matches and go home. In VRC, we have this same opportunity in smaller robots. Teams that struggle to even get invited to VRC Worlds will be ecstatic to meet students from “legendary” teams like Vexellent, Gladstone, Eagle Engineering, or even Team Kaos.

I would like to see more qualifying rounds, and I’d like to see more teams in the eliminations, but I would have to say that I’m even more impressed that IFI honored its commitment to invite any team that qualified, and didn’t resort to only inviting alliance captains, or truncating the division eliminations.

It won’t do much to help my graduating seniors, but I want to see how Dallas goes, and I’m willing to give IFI the benefit of the doubt and see what happens next season. First, we have to do well at this one.