Error in Ranking system- caused by SP

At a recent VRC comp in Cleveland Ohio, 2 robots were a step above the rest. I now that this term is sometimes used loosely but this time I mean it. To illustrate my point let me put it this way. These 2 robots were on the same alliance in the finals. In the quater-finals, semi-finals, and finals their alliance would win every match during the autonomous mode alone. They would score enough in 20 seconds to guarantee a win every time. People could see during the inspections that these bots were going places.

You would think that during the qualifying matches these bots would be ranked 1 and 2. No. They were ranked 3rd and 8th. This was because they did not have enough SPs. Naturally, their drivers would always try and win by the smallest margin possible but because each of the 28 teams attending got to play only 4 qualifying matches it was very easy for a so-so team to go undefeated. Also when a match with 4 so-so bots took place it was always insanely close. This means that the winner would end up with a higher number of SPs.

It seems that the only way to fix this problem would be to have a lot more Qualifying matches per team but at the worlds the Qualifying matches per team to total number of teams ratio cannot be much better.

Thats the game though. I see what you are saying 100% but if you have a solid autonomous you may want a back up autonomous that does not score so many points that you may not be able to get back if the other bots are non-functional or just not very good.

I have 2 pretty good auto runs that i am happy with for competitive matches but i also have a toned down auto run that scores fewer points for this kind of situation, this way i can score a few points in auto and leave the rest up to my judgement of how many points i want to score. If the other robots don’t work then i don’t do anything after autonomous.

What i have noticed is that even really good robots can win qualifying matches effectively (with high SP’s) just by understanding the rules and ranking system and planning accordingly.

~DK

last year at worlds every team had A LOT of qualifiers and this year i think someone said something about there being 4 divisions so i don’t think that will be a problem but at smaller competitions it would be better to have more qualifiers

to total number of teams ratio cannot be much better.
Don’t draw conclusions before you see the match list. World Championships is a two-day event, probably with multiple divisions, definitely on multiple fields. Last year, they squeezed in 6 qualifications with nearly 130 teams per division - if the divisions shrink, there will probably be more matches.

[IMHO]Truly fantastic robots can control the outcome of the match enough to get lots of SPs (enough to seed top 4, regardless of the number of quals). If the team doesn’t feel like playing SPs and ends up seeding low, they will still win the tournament, because they could win every match regardless of which alliance they end up on.[/IMHO] At Orange County, there was a team that went 1-2 in quals (seeding 17/27), was picked by the #1 alliance, and still won the tournament (playing every match).

I used to think SPs were bad until I saw the FIRST Robotics scoring system this year (it’s not even based on wins and losses). Check out the threads on ChiefDelphi.com, and you’ll probably feel a lot better about the current VRC system.

The FRC ranking this year is stupid. There was a team who went UP by quite a bit at an event by losing a match like 11-0.

At least VRC is about wins and losses before it is about SP’s.

I say with vexnet and all if teams got between seven and eight qualifiers before the playoffs that would be great. With a two day event and more fields than last year, five matches one day and two the next before playoffs seems within the realm of possibility.

On-topic, I agree that SPs isn’t the best system out there, I’d prefer a system that rewarded you for creaming the other team/getting creamed, resulting in the drivers trying their hardest.

first there is BUILDING, PROGRAMMING, and DRIVING
but the SP’s add another aspect of the game, STRATEGY
if a good team can totally cream their opponent, they should at least KNOW the rules and how the scoring system works
like dinnerkid says, have a weaker autonomous so you have more control
or if you dont have time, just put the operator control jumper in interrupt 6 and let it sit there
if you overkill them in autonomous and they cant get the balls back, you have NO control over the game
you must keep a balance
if they are dead in the water the points will be closer
if they are “okish” then you can have a bit more difference (in case a miracle happens :))

point said, if you ARE completely godly, you should be smart enough to be controlling the point system (not praying that they will drop 4 oranges in 40 secs)

Did you notice that Qualifying starts on Thursday? I’m thinking 8-9 matches is a real possibility. As the yoots say, W00T!!3!

The title of this thread appears completely wrong. Titan, you strongly imply that you believe the real problem was the number of qualifying matches, and that the incorrect ranking (in you opinion) was perhaps exacerbated by the two teams scoring too many balls during their autonomous periods, not the SP system.

You also strongly imply that some sort of beauty contest is the right way to break ties (equal win-loss records) when too few matches are played during the quals. That doesn’t strike me as a solution

Well, I don’t see a problem in the SP system. If the facts you asserted are correct, I do see a problem in the two teams’ Autonomous strategies.

A team’s rank is affected both by the machine they build and by how cleverly they use it.

Am I missing something?

Blake

Team update 16 should change a lot of the scoring/ranking issues.

I agree with Blake. The current VEX ranking system does work, if you know HOW to work it. It’s there to keep qualifying matches interesting for both sides.

Also, if teams are properly scouting, they will find the other good teams, regardless of how they are seeded. The good teams will than likely be picked and if they are really good, it won’t matter who else is in the alliance.

Hut Hmmm. It is DinerKid, 1 “n” as in a restaurant. :smiley:
Sorry had to say it it was bugging me.

~DK

If it turns out to be 8-9 matches I’ll be jumping for joy since that means that everything will sort itself out nicely and there will be almost no undefeated teams unless they really earn their place up there.

Back on topic, I haven’t really seen any combo which knocks EVERY ball off the wall during autonomous which should mean it’s possible to pull a few over and get some SP. Also, I’d create a blank autonomous, store the balls in the robot and lose autonomous on purpose to get another 5 SP assuming the other team can score something or else choose not to preload.

oops
ill be sure to get it right next time :rolleyes:

I dunnnno - I’m thinnking it might be funn for everyonne to use two nns every channce they cann for a while, just to see how lonng dierkid can take it before his head explodes. :wink:

GGGGGood idea GGGGGblake :wink:

DK

You don’t even have to write a new autonomous, just orient your robot the wrong way. :stuck_out_tongue:

This is true however you may stall out quite a few motors.

or kill a few clutches
i personally would just insert the jumper in interrupt 6 and not touch it for the whole 20 secs

i originally though that this would just skip autonomous and then run your driver control (and your robot would shut off 20 seconds before the end of the match) for the designated time period. now that i have done it i realize that your driver control will last long enough to complete a match.

I think if you don’t have another auto to go to putting a jumper in is your best bet.

~DK