Very similar to the other thread but a bit different.
I’m very interested in getting my FRC team to have a VRC program that competes primarily in the fall. However, I don’t really know what I’m doing and I’d like some advice from people that have been on teams that “do both”.
How do you incorporate Vex into your pre season robotics lessons and whatnot? There is a concern on the team that starting Vex teams will prevent rookies from being able to learn skills like machining in the pre season.
How do you divide students? All rookies on one team and all veterans on another? Mix and match? All mechanical guys on one team and all programmers on another? (encourage trying something new)
What if you are guaranteed not to go to the Vex Championship?
There is a New England team (Checkmate? 40?) that start their FRC design/build by playing a 1/3 scale version of the FRC game using Vex bots.
As soon as the FRC game is announced they whip up a 1/3 scale field, tell their designers to start prototyping using Vex, and invite all of their neighbors to come play too.
They both enjoy it the week and strong believe in its effect on the rest of their build season. You might want to check it out.
So much of this depends on the structure, activities, finances and volunteer base of the FRC team that it is almost impossible to provide generic advice.
While I will commend you on your desire to add VRC to your team’s opportunities, I would also caution you to be sure that you are not over-extending your FRC team. It takes a LOT to run just one FRC, let alone a stable of VRC teams, too.
1346 ran both VRC and FRC for several years, up to and including competiting at an out-of-town VRC event in the middle of FRC build season. For the past two years the division was simple… FRC was a club, 100% after school and extracurricular, while VRC was built in to the curriculum of my Engineering 11 class. Perhaps not surprisingly there was a LOT of crossover between the class and the club.
I have found that one of the greatest benefits in doing VRC is in developing drive team skills. Many FRC teams ask “how do you pick the best driver?” Watching students compete in VRC really narrows down the field as far as figuring out who can come up with innovative strategies under pressure, re-strategize mid-match, and find a way to win.
VEX after Robothon, until November JumpStart competition hosted by Rick TYler. After that, all members are required to do an FRC “workshop” we setup for basic FRC knowledge, and then build members are required to learn the ins and outs of the tools we have available. VEX is essentially banished during club time (out-of-school weekend meetings hosted by VEX team members are okay, as long as they do the FRC stuff too). Towards the last week of FRC build (while Graphics and driving practice are in session), non-drivers for FRC on the VEX team can return to VEX in preparation for Rick’s late February competition. From there, with the exception of FRC regionals, VEX is expected to maintain the VEX team.
Because there are benefits to both VRC and FRC, we try to involve every student in VRC during the off season. After FRC begins, all members are expected to direct all attention at FRC, unless outside of build meetings.
What do you mean by this? I don’t feel like I’m qualified to respond to this question, since some luck and a good alliance carried our team to Worlds our first competition last year.
FRC 2791 intends to pre register for the FIRST Championship, so Vex Championship is simply not an option for us. We have only 3 mentors total (counting me and I’m not even a real mentor since I’m in college) so we just can’t do both. There were concerns on the team that without the incentive of qualification the team will not hold anyone’s interest. I personally don’t think these concerns are well founded, but they are there…
We haven’t yet been to the FIRST championship, so our team is considering preregistration. However, we also understand that our performance at VRC Worlds is an integral part of our fundraising efforts, and also something like twenty times cheaper than the FIRST championship. I guess it comes down to balancing the role of VRC and FRC in your school.
Especially this year, with tag and bag for FRC (at least that’s how shipping is working, to my understanding), transporting the robot will mean additional expenses.
FRC & VRC Team 228 GUS has been doing both for four years now starting when FTC used to be FVC. We have been a year-round program for more than 8 years now and Vex has become a huge part of our training and new member retention program. Not only do we use Vex and VRC in the fall we also use our Vex kits for Savage Soccer @ WPI and our own Savage Soccer South competition. Last year we had two VRC teams and five Savage Soccer teams.
First isn’t machining a little advanced for rookies? Hand tool and power tool basics need to be mastered before getting to machining. Also, what about basics mechanical, electrical, and programming skills? These should be taught before machining. We use vex to teach mechanical concepts such as Speed vs. Torque, calculating gear ratios, gear box styles, translating rotational motion into linear motion, various arm and elevator designs, center of gravity concepts, and even some end affector basics. We have a much higher student retention rate when they can build a Vex mechanism to help them understand some of these concepts. Electrical concepts are fairly simplified with vex, but sensor function and feedback concepts are much easier to teach with Vex, and whether they know it or not, when we get them to program these sensors in mini labs they’re learning programing basics too. One of the best parts of this training is that the students get get figure out what parts of robotics they like best by doing them all.
As you know Chris, the FRC season is highly compressed and mentors need to keep a pretty tight schedule to get done in time with a decent machine. Vex has a more relaxed schedule. It allows the students to manage every aspect of the team themselves. We mentors stay out of every aspect of team management with the Vex teams unless we are specifically asked a question or for some guidance. To keep the teams moving forward and always improving their designs, we have started building a mentor’s Vex robot to compete against the student’s designs. This friendly head to head comparison inspires the students to go back and redesign or improve their design to beat us mentors.
Savage Soccer is much the same, but also adds an additional element of leadership into the mix. Along with managing their own teams our students are encouraged to help middle schoolers (potential future team members) or brand new students build and compete at our Savage Soccer South competition. Last year a group of three middle school students almost won the competition against even our own students. I’ll guarantee that those three students will be joining our team.
One rule I really enjoy with Savage Soccer is that ALL students on a team must drive at least two matches during the qualification rounds, and drivers must swap driver / co-driver positions at the mid-point of each match. This allows everyone to show their skills under actual competition conditions and pushes everyone out of their comfort zone. Then the students get to deal with one of our hardest decisions in FRC, who gets to drive. If they choose to revert to using their best drivers in later rounds or during the elimination rounds, then they get to deal with explaining their decision to the rest of their team members.
You can divide your teams as you see fit, but since we use Vex as a fun training experience we insist that our most veteran students lead VRC or Savage Soccer teams. To break into teams we have the leaders “draft” students into their teams. This usually leads to fairly well balanced teams. The veteran students know which students have strong strong skills, and most are savy enough to know that they need a well balanced team. Stacking up on strong mechanical types will leave you weak in programming, driving, or strategy, and most are also smart enough to know that ignoring the rookies can be a fatal mistake. We have always had rookies arrive with some impressive skills.
Last year our Vex teams won three regional competitions without any guarantee of going to the Championships. We only decided to go to Dallas after their successes. They competed just as hard at every competition they went to, including at least five off-season FRC events. A competition is a competition is a competition. I don’t know about you, but I’d never want to slack off at competition. There is a certain level of pride in doing well regardless of what’s at stake.
By giving the students complete ownership of our VRC and Savage Soccer teams, they’ve done much better at FRC. They appreciate the hard decision that we mentors have to make during the FRC build and competition season and are better rounded in all aspects of any robotics competition.
I’d highly recommend you following your instincts on this, I think your team will be better in the end.
