fun with hanging...

Hello again everybody…

I’d like to start a debate over whether hanging is worth the effort and time or not. In Round Up, hanging seemed to separate the good teams from the great teams most of the time, and was a great supplement to driver and programming skills scores. Team 1103 was great at this, and could high hang before you even realized what was happening. ON THE OTHER HAND, team 44 couldn’t hang that year, to my knowledge, and still had a very solid robot.

THIS YEAR, in Toss Up, I don’t think that the ratio of sacrificed time to point benefit makes hanging worth the risk.


How can 20 points not be worth it? Hanging high with a large ball is 20 locked-in points and the time it takes to hang is less than what it would take it score that many balls. I think every great robot should be able to hang, and each match should be played based on what the other teams can do. If you are against teams that cannot descore quickly and effectively then hanging should be strongly considered. If you are against teams that can descore quickly then staying to do “damage control” should be considered over hanging.

I think the ability to hang high with a ball is something that should be a “must have” in the arsenal of any highly competitive robot.

Look at the number of scores so far that have been in the 45-60 range, a winning autonomous and hanging high with a ball is 1/2 of that in itself. Robots and strategies will improve as the season goes on and adjustments to game play will occur in response, but for now I think hanging is definitely worth it. As a mentor I encouraged hanging in the design, and it was incorporated without the need for additional motors or pneumatics.

i think it can depend on the game situation, if you are paired with a team that isn’t very good or is having problems competing i think it is a good idea, i am hoping to hang, and i think it is good to have the choice.

but if you and another team work really well and stash lots of balls and score loads of balls, as well as de-scoring balls, then hanging isn’t necessary. this year i am trying to be able to do as much as i can, and be efficient in doing so.

I also think hanging is worth the time, it is solid points that cant be messed with. My question is how to hang? I know a hook from the top of your arm can reach it but the problem is lifting the robot off the ground, that would require a lot of torque, causing your arm to be slow. I have a few ideas involving elastics but they are not solid.
Got any ideas?

From a stategic perspective and an engineering perspective, i do not think hanging is worth it.

First off, i do not see hanging as a 20 point perk. I see it as a 10 point hanging perk that turns your robot into a column goal. half of the points come from holding a large ball. So realistically, the act of hanging is only 10 points, while the act of holding a large ball while hanging is also 10 points.

Now, i may be a victim of a prison of consistency and i’m rationalizing my way out, but here is a scoring analysis of max scores

Buckys are worth 50 points
Large balls are worth 30 points
hanging is worth 20 points

If each method is performed perfectly, these are the scores you get. By far, bucky balls are the most valuable. So the real argument is whether you should hang, get large balls, or do both. to determine this, we need deeper analysis. Here are the max added scores a robot can influence at 1 time.

Buckys are 70 (50 from the columns, 20 for opposing stored on barrier and/or within robot)
Large balls are 50 (20 in columns, 30 in goal zone)
hanging are 40(preventing 2 robots from hanging)

Looking at both scenarios, large balls still have the lead. In scenario 1, if 2 large balls were in the column, it would be worth 20 points. 10 points would be added if balls were in the goal zone. Because of this, 30 would be the max score. Even if balls were in the goal zone, that would be 20 points, equalizing with hanging. However, if you consider total influence, you can see that manipulating all 8 large balls at the same time can have a much greater affect than hanging yourself. Even if all balls were in the goal zone, that would also equalize scoring. The last option is much more cunning however. By preventing a hang rather than hanging yourself (assuming that it’s impossible to hang and prevent others from hanging at the same time), you can cancel out a potential 40 points. If you hung yourself, you would only have a potential of 20 points.

So rather than hanging, or hanging and manipulating large balls, you can determine that developing your robot to stop teams from hanging is much more convenient. the driver practice needed to disrupt an opponent’s strategy is not difficult. Defense all the way, get between the opponent and target. the engineering difficultly isn’t that hard either. Develop a robot which can resist pounding from a robot that’s equally built. Develop a robot which can block the necessary path to reach the hanging bar. Developing a robot which can stop 40 points of hanging rather than earning 20 points of hanging has a much higher chance of winning a 2 s 1.

So sidetracking slightly, to hang, you need to hold a large ball and lift your robot off the ground. To raise yourself off the ground, you have to be 40 inches tall and have a lot of power.
Because of this, i look for alternative uses for these traits.
what if you could be 40 inches wide? If you’re 40 inches wide, you could easily manipulate 2 of your large balls at the same time. With more engineering, you could manipulate all 4 of your opponent’s large balls. That will deprive them of a possible 30 points and hanging points. if you decide to make your robot protect your large balls in the goal zone, that would be another 20 points. Also, being in the goal zone opens up strategy opportunity with bucky balls and de-scoring.
what if you placed all the power you use for hanging towards shooting? if you could shoot bucky balls into the goal zone, you can quickly pass pieces to your opponent to stash. You also have the strategic capability to send opposing game pieces to the hanging zone. This forces them to make a round trip to score again. Also, shooting is very flashy. Not only does it look cool for judging, it’ll look cool for alliance selection.
what if you were a heavy robot that couldn’t hang? you could push around opponents and no one could push you back. The field is tight anyways so speed wouldn’t be a necessity. heavy weight also compliments the anti hang ideas.

I agree with your breakdown, and I’d like to add a few things.

From my perspective, with the time it takes to hang and the points hanging with a ball SUBTRACTS (I’ll explain) from you, it’s not worth it.

Low Hang= 5 Points
Low Hang + Ball= 15 Points
High Hang= 10 points
High Hang + Ball= 20 points

Ok, so… let’s say that a robot can high hang in… 10 seconds (floor to hanging bar, not counting getting in position). Suppose, for the purposes of this scenario, there are 30 seconds left in the match. Said robot is 20 points behind in scoring. A high hang with a ball should even up the score SO the robot goes to retrieve a big ball from the goal zone. This burns ten seconds. They position themselves under the bar. This burns ten seconds. They hang with the ball. This burns the last ten seconds. They get 20 points for a high hang. THEY STILL LOSE BY 5 POINTS. Why?

By retrieving a large ball to score with, they subtract points from their own score. They took 5 points away and added 20. a 15 point difference.

I know that grabbing your own balls out of the goal zone is STUPID and would never happen, but consider that 2/3 of the field is scoring area. By taking a large ball from the field, you either take away your own score or stop a potential score. You burn your time, too. You can’t descore or block in those last crucial seconds because you hang.

BOTTOM LINE: Since you use objects that could otherwise be scored, hanging with a ball isn’t worth the 20 point face-value.

Chances are, your balls are going to get descored. You’ll almost never take a large ball out of the goal zone. Sometimes, it might already be in the hanging zone. Unless you can descore 3 balls in the time it takes to hang, it’s very likely still worth it. There are several ways to hang quickly, pretty sure such things have already appeared on the forums