the main reason I think it’s better is because you can lift 2-4 goals onto the platform during the first half of that 30 second endgame period, and then you have extra time at the end of the match to either stop your opponents from parking, or steal goals from their home zone, which would be a net swing of points greater than parking.
it might be a similar scenario to parking during tp, where sometimes teams would just choose not to compete for that center platform in favor of firing off a few more last-second shots, because that could yield more net points than parking. except this year the point values are much higher from both and that endgame time is much longer.
also it’s just easier to not worry about needing to climb the platform, since it seems kind of sketchy.
actually, you can’t balance robots or goals at the end of auton, because the definition for balanced and the definition for elevated both include that it must be at the end of the match. I figure the gdc thought that parking with a goal was too easy to be worth the amount it is during auton, which would make autons in general less interesting, which I agree with.
Here are my thoughts on a couple of things that have been said so far.
I completely agree with this. I have heard people say that they will rush the goals in auto and beat every one else to them, but the problem with that is that there are 3 goals and it is safe to assume if you have the ability to rush goals, so does your opponent. And like you said if you are down one mobile goal rings make up the gap. In another scenario, they have a mobile goal extra and you have auto again rings make the difference.
This is also really true. 54 points would even more than make up for the opponents having an extra elevated mobile goal due to the odd number of mobile goals. Then it would come down to auto unless they also have rings. Which brings up the point of doing rings while you might have to mobile goal lead to make sure the opponents don’t make a come back off of rings.
I agree again. People will see the high value of goals and think they can win on goals alone, but the key to beating them will be to get one neutral goal or more, then rings will make up for the one mobile goal deficient. And since all the mobile goals will be in a bot’s possession within the first 10 seconds after auto if not in auto, I was wondering if some sort of design to steal mobile goals off of another team’s robot is possible. Especially since many teams think of their bot design without thinking of how other bots will interact with it (like how many teams were not prepared to face yy’s defense bot in change up) and even when teams adapt it can just be used for normal mobile goal manipulation. Simple designs such as a fork lift design similar to 1970k’s itz reveal would be susceptible to getting their goals stolen (and I imagine this type of design will be popular especially early season).
I agree that it’s unrealistic for a robot, even one that specializes in grabbing goals as fast as possible, to be able to obtain all 3 neutral goals consistently. And even when they do, that’s only half the battle because good opponents will do anything they can to stop a robot from climbing a platform with 5 goals.
another problem I have with a goal only strategy is that even if you do gain control of all the goals, you’re going to do so at the very start of the match, and you won’t be climbing the platform until the very end of the match. That leaves a large portion of the match where you can’t be scoring any points. And you won’t be able to play very good defense if you’re lugging around 5 goals.
Compare that with a bot that can score rings and goals, which will always be able to score points at any point in the match. It seems a more productive strategy to rush goals first, stack, and then do endgame tasks than it does to only do the first and last objective, even if you are slightly better at doing the first than a ring bot.
I agree that the game points appear to be nicely balanced, which makes it almost impossible to win with the mobile goals alone and without scoring any rings. Of course, that assumes evenly matched opponents.
However, I am not sure that it will be easier to put mobile goals on the platform one by one, rather than having a robot park on the platform while carrying four of them.
Also, it seems like it will be very unlikely to steal a mogo from a competently built robot, once it gets hold of it. Just look at the pneumatically actuated claws in the Taran’s concept.
It is much easier to imagine two opposing robots grabbing the same goal and neither letting it go. I think, there will be very few opportunities to score any rings on the neutral goals until the last 30 seconds of the game, if the defense is competently played.
how are we defining easier here? it might take less driving skill to drive up a platform with 4 goals, and it might be quicker, but it also might be more difficult to build a robot that can carry 4 goals, especially if the robot also has to stack rings (which I think robots will really want to be able to do).
also consider the advantages of being able to move freely at the end of the match, instead of sitting still on your platform. You can take away any goals your opponents have left in their home zone, you could score some extra rings, you could even defend an opponent trying to reach their platform and stop them from doing so.
I’m not so sure about this, for a robot to defend an opponent carrying the neutral goal to the point where they cannot stack rings on it, they would have to spend all of their time defending, and even then it might not be a perfect shutdown. which can be a viable option if your opponent is the only good robot on their alliance and you have a competent partner, but otherwise it’s a net loss for you to spend your whole match defending.
and I don’t think goal only robots will be able to defend very well if they’re holding a large quantity of goals. that weight will slow them down, especially when it comes to acceleration, so much so that even with a 6 or potentially even 8 motor drive, opponents should be able to outpace them.
I agree with this, robots will probably be able to hold onto their goals well, although having some sort of stick to push against the post of an opponents goals (essentially creating a high-torque lever), you might be able to tip goals out of some robots.
If there was motor penalty for the pneumatics, I would tend to agree with you that it would be nontrivial and take some mechanical wizardry to build such robot.
However, no penalty rule makes it almost mandatory for teams, who want to win championships, to buy pneumatics kit and use it for auxiliary tasks (like locking the claws) and to shift motor power between different modes.
If you think about it, with access to 8 motor drivetrain and as much pneumatic cylinders as you want, it is not that hard to pack four mobile goals into a robot and carry them up the platform.
I would expect any competent alliance to keep all mobile goals they own locked on their robots and both of their robots stay in contact with the platform for the last 30 sec of the match, so that they could score collected rings without any interference from the opposing alliance.
Also, if I was a robot that snatched two neutral goals during autonomous, I would stay as far away from the opposing alliance home zone as possible. Because I wouldn’t want them taking me hostage along with the points that come with those goals.
I would try to pick another alliance goal and collect about 10 field rings during autonomous, then pick remaining alliance goal at the beginning of the driver period.
I wouldn’t need to - I would just go to my home zone, deploy some sort of the pneumatic brake, and spend the next ~60 sec trying to score rings on my alliance goals to make it more dangerous for opposing robot to harass me, as they would risk DQ if they cause any of those rings to descore.
If my alliance partner would want to engage opposing alliance, to interfere with them scoring any rings or play counter-defense on them - that would be great.
However, if I was a robot that was fast enough to snatch two neutral goals early in the game and reliable enough to collect 10-12 field rings, score them on the alliance goals, and park on the platform with four goals - then I would be mathematically guaranteed to win the game even 1v2 and even with very competent opponents:
Assuming that on the championship level both alliances are evenly skilled and rarely make strategic mistakes, it will all come down to who will be able to grab more neutral goals in the first seconds of autonomous and then not fail in scoring the rings and parking on the platform in the last 30 sec of the match.
I hope the middle of the game is not going to be as boring as, I afraid, it could be. Perhaps, some tug of war over the neutral goals or strategic dumping of the rings under the platforms to prevent parking, will make it more interesting.
no I think you’re right, but it is difficult, and possibly impossible practically to be able to score rings and lift 4-5 goals with nothing but pneumatics. And I think scoring rings is important.
easier said than done, even with free pneumatics. what on earth would that robot even look like? 4 goal lifts on all 4 sides with pneumatics and locking mechanisms, 6 motor drive, 2 motor ring mechanisms?
that’s a lot to pack onto a robot, and not something that many teams will be able to accomplish. and even if you do figure out how to do this, there’s not garuntee you can get 2 alliance goals in auton. just because your opponents might not have a 6 motor drive doesn’t mean they can’t employ effective speed boosting strategies and potentially beat you to one of the goals you’re targeting.
assuming you get the tall goal and one other neutral goal, as well as both of your alliance goals, and you park on your platform with them, that’s 190 points.
your opponents can still get 3 goals onto the platform and both of their robots, which is 180 points. But if they win auton or score rings, they can still beat you. So no, it’s not a guaranteed win.
the only way you can guarantee a win by yourself without scoring rings is to bring 5 goals up on the platform and park, which is 230 points.
if you can do all this, then the most your opponents can get is 60 points from parking both their bots, 80 points from elevating their alliance goals, 10 points from auton, and 48 points from rings on alliance goals (it’s unclear how realistic being able to score more than 8 rings on each alliance goal is), which makes 198
However the notion that a single robot could carry this out consistently is frankly unrealistic in my opinion, I don’t think any robot will be able to grab all three neutral goals before an opponent with any amount of consistency.
this is the main reason I think rings are necessary, they’re are worth a lot of points but not enough to win every match by themselves.
I do think an alliance of a ring scoring bot and a goal focused bot would be very formidable indeed, so I do think it is very viable to build a goal only robot for the purposes of allying with a good ring scoring bot. But it’s a risky strategy because it relies on either getting picked by a more versitile bot that does well in quals, or getting lucky and not having any good versitile robot’s as opponents during quals yourself and ranking high.
I’m genuinely curious how they do this, any chance we could see the particular robot?
surprised someone’s done it this early into the season, and it’s probably a very effective strategy this early, although I expect if they went up against a really good versitile robot alliance later in the season they would be defeated.
That looks really cool! I would really recommend trying a ringle mechanism to put a couple rings on one of those goals. If you can do that, or have your ally put ringles onto a goal before you pick it up in the endgame, that would be tough to beat!