Is center parking worth it?

[ET_phone_home]

@Mystellianne

I know this was supposed to be a pun, but I don’t think center parking will be as important as people are hyping it up to be. Much like what happened with the hanging pole in Starstruck, you’d be better off spending the time to flip a few flags or caps than you would if you were fighting for a potential 6 points.

Because flipping caps/flags aren’t just 1 or 2 points (they’re actually a 2 to 4 point swing because it takes away 1-2 points from the opponent and gives them to you), you’re better off letting the opponent take the center tile while you cause an upset with the other game objects.

@ET phone home

Actually, the center tile also represents a huge amount of “swing points”. By parking in the middle you score 6 points and deny them 6. That’s a 12 point swing, which is like flipping three high scored caps or high flags. Add the fact that it’s not that hard to do and shouldn’t take too long, I think center parking will be a huge deal in a lot of matches.

@[TVA

MarshalM]It is different, however. Rescoring caps and flags don’t just deny points, they directly take points away from the opposing alliance. This would apply to pushing an opposing robot off of the center platform, though.

@Mystellianne

Why spend an exorbitant amount of time fighting for the possibility of getting the center park, when you can guarantee a much larger amount of “swing points” by flipping caps and flags? Sure they get the guaranteed 6 points, but you’ll get a guaranteed amount much higher than that.

@ET phone home

Exactly. I predict that most matches this year will see one robot center parked similar to how everyone parked in ITZ. The point swing is too high and the difficulty / time cost to low for it to not be a big deal.

@ET phone home

Easy. Don’t spend an exorbitant amount of time doing it.

@Mystellianne

The problem with that mentality is that you don’t control how much time you spend on it, your opponent does. Much like how in Starstruck you could definitely go for the high hang if you knew your opponent couldn’t score many stars in the process of it, you can definitely take the center park if you know they won’t put up a fight. But in an environment where all robots and drivers are skilled at the game (as the season progresses), the amount of time it takes to claim that park will increase as the skill of your opponents increase, and the time it takes to flip other objects in the process decreases as your skill increases.

Therefore, it makes more sense to focus on the stuff you know will guarantee you swing points, instead of spending an inestimable amount of time on something you’re not even sure you’ll even attain.

Just thought I’d move this discussion here. The main argument saying parking matters is that it is a 12 point swing that takes little time, the main argument against it is that the swing isn’t worth the risk of falling and getting no payoff.

[ET_phone_home]

@Mystellianne, to respond to your last post, I respectfully disagree. The skill of your opponent might very well decrease the likely hood of a successful park, but the amount of time you spend trying to park is completely up to you. You can wait for any amount of time, within reason, regardless of if your opponent is parking or not. If you don’t think it’s worth the risk that’s up to you, but in my opinion the point swing is more than enough to decide quite a few matches.

[callen]

I think the issue will be timing. If you park too early and leave your opposing robot you were “covering” open, what are they doing in the meantime? If they flip two of your flags/caps, you lose 4 points while they gain 4 points while you picked up 6 points for parking. That’s a net gain of 2 points for you and 4 points for them. That means you went to park too early for it to be worth giving up defense.

[ET_phone_home]

@callen

I think the issue will be timing. If you park too early and leave your opposing robot you were “covering” open, what are they doing in the meantime? If they flip two of your flags/caps, you lose 4 points while they gain 4 points while you picked up 6 points for parking. That’s a net gain of 2 points for you and 4 points for them. That means you went to park too early for it to be worth giving up defense.

I see what you’re saying, but parking should only take a few seconds. And in order to match the point swing, three flags have to be turned. That’s two cycles. Do you really think a real robot could aim, shoot, aim, shoot, reload, aim, and shoot all in 5 seconds? My mentality on parking is this: If I don’t, they will. If it ends up taking a long time, don’t do it. But I really don’t think it will take long. If you time it right, it can be a big advantage.

[Dokkaebi]

I do see the lines being drawn between the center tile and the high hang from starstruck, and I see the season progressing in the same way. The center tile will be important for early season, and a good way for more points mid season, but I do see it becoming phased out for U.S. open and worlds due to the high cycle times we will see with robots by that time.

[MasterCole]

I think it all depends on the nature of the bump: if it’s easier to get on than we think then yes it’s a viable source of points if it’s harder than we think it’s probably not worth it.

[theone1728]

This honestly seems like a question that varies too much based upon robot design and situational awareness. Ultimately why speculate when you can go start drawing designs taking measurements and testing concepts. Honestly to get up that high a bump quickly, my guess is tank treads well be needed to get up without the assistance of the other parking tiles.

[Xenon]

I think it will be harder than it looks to get up there. that is a 3-inch bump, and if an opposing robot is already up there, chances are you’re not going to be able to center park. you would be much better off scoring caps and flags. but, in the case that you have to opportunity to be the first on the center platform, you have to decide if the opponents can score enough points in the time it takes to park that your bonus gets cancelled out. it will all come down to match variety imo

[Vyx]

@To_Bi_As

that is a 3-inch bump

after like 20 minutes of looking around, the platform pipe is 2 inches high which would make the middle platform like 3.75 - 4.25 inches, the range stemming from the possibility of the platforms not being stacked directly on top of each other

[Xenon]

@Vyx

after like 20 minutes of looking around, the platform pipe is 2 inches high which would make the middle platform like 3.75 - 4.25 inches, the range stemming from the possibility of the platforms not being stacked directly on top of each other

are you sure? I’m 99% sure that all of the pipes are 3 inches tall…

[Gallium]

@ET phone home

And in order to match the point swing, three flags have to be turned. That’s two cycles.

But the flags that are being flipped are already scored for you, so turning 2 flags results in an 8 point swing. That means 1 cycle is worth more than a park, and will certainly take less time. That being said, there isn’t really any reason you couldn’t park with 2 balls and then shoot, so that complicates the question a bit.

[Vyx]

@To_Bi_As

are you sure? I’m 99% sure that all of the pipes are 3 inches tall…

i mean, the specs for height aren’t in the manual but on

https://www.vexrobotics.com/vexedr/products/competition-products/turningpoint-field-elements.html

platform pipes are sold as

4. 2" x 16" Yellow Platform Pipes
   (4) 2" x 16" Blue Platform Pipes
   (4) 2" x 16" Red Platform Pipes

and i looked up how these specs are labeled and 2’’ is diameter

the extra length to push the 16 inch to the 20+ inch length and width comes from the corner connector pieces

[AlexM_4478X]

Appendix A says 2.4" tall for each

[Xenon]

@Vyx

i mean, the specs for height aren’t in the manual but on

https://www.vexrobotics.com/vexedr/products/competition-products/turningpoint-field-elements.html

platform pipes are sold as

4. 2" x 16" Yellow Platform Pipes
   (4) 2" x 16" Blue Platform Pipes
   (4) 2" x 16" Red Platform Pipes

and i looked up how these specs are labeled and 2’’ is diameter

the extra length to push the 16 inch to the 20+ inch length and width comes from the corner connector pieces

huh. I was wrong then

[Vyx]

@AlexM_4478X

Appendix A says 2.4" tall for each

@To_Bi_As

huh. I was wrong then

yeah, i see it now, i was wrong too, 2.4’’ height for the alliance platform, and the diameter is also denoted as 2.4’’ but the actual middle platform is 4.9’’ so im assuming that an extra 0.1 inch appears because of the base

all in all, they can be rounded to 2.5’’ alliance and 5’’ middle for easier calculations

vex does still sell 5’’ wheels, not sure if they are legal, but even with those, it’s gonna be tough to get straight up to the center without an assist

also, G12 is waived when it comes to the center platform so does this mean a robot on the floor can potentially push a robot sideways off the platform if they have full omnis without penalty? what about with something more violent such as a puncher?

[Crazycrabman]

I think that the center parking space is too many points to just ignore, especially if the opponent could just drive up in the last second or two for 6 free points.

[brendanmcguire]

@Crazycrabman

I think that the center parking space is too many points to just ignore, especially if the opponent could just drive up in the last second or two for 6 free points.

That’s very true, it’s sort of like a Prisoner’s Dilemma. The longer both teams wait to go to the parking zone, the more incentive each team has to go. But by going, you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage in regards to caps and flags. I think this means that eventually, the bonus will come down to whoever can get there fast enough and defend it for the last few seconds of a match

[Vyx]

@Crazycrabman

I think that the center parking space is too many points to just ignore, especially if the opponent could just drive up in the last second or two for 6 free points.

i think what people are saying is to fight for it but only within the last 5-7 seconds so that the other team cant counter by flipping multiple caps or something

side question: are you allowed to drive up the opponent’s alliance platform?

[ET_phone_home]

@Gallium

But the flags that are being flipped are already scored for you, so turning 2 flags results in an 8 point swing. That means 1 cycle is worth more than a park, and will certainly take less time. That being said, there isn’t really any reason you couldn’t park with 2 balls and then shoot, so that complicates the question a bit.

That post was assuming the center parking points are also swing points as I said earlier. If you don’t center park, your opponent will, and if you do, they won’t. Under this assumption, (and it is an assumption I grant you that) by parking you deny 6 and at the same time score 6, with a net swing of 12. In caps that means flipping three caps on posts (3 cycles) and in flags that means toggling three flags (2 cycles assuming you don’t miss).

[callen]

@ET phone home

That post was assuming the center parking points are also swing points as I said earlier. If you don’t center park, your opponent will, and if you do, they won’t. Under this assumption, (and it is an assumption I grant you that) by parking you deny 6 and at the same time score 6, with a net swing of 12. In caps that means flipping three caps on posts (3 cycles) and in flags that means toggling three flags (2 cycles assuming you don’t miss).

Your math doesn’t work. What you’re saying is that by you center parking you are also preventing them from parking on their own platform.