Is the Tall Goal Worth it?

So the tall goal exists, and as we know it’s the largest point potential of anything in the entire game. you can get (realistically) 80 points from rings on the high branches, 32 points from rings on the low branches, and 20 points (realistically I don’t think elevating a fully loaded tall goal is a good idea) from the goal being in your home zone. That’s a whopping 132 points, more than 3 elevated goals.

There’s no arguing that the potential pointage from the tall goal is an enormous advantage, but is it one that can viably be taken advantage of?

What I mean by this is that is it realistic to be able to fully load out the tall goal in a match, but still retain the ability to competently play the alliance and short neutral goal game?

The only robot revealed so far that can internally stack on the high goal (which I think is necessary if you’re going to stack on the high goal so you can firmly posses the goal and rotate it) is NorCal’s. NorCal VEX Tipping Point RI3D Reveal - YouTube

This robot can also grab an alliance goal and internally stack on it as well, and I’m not sure but it looks to me like they could also externally stack on alliance and lower neutral goals if they want to. And while this robot currently can’t lift goal onto the platform externally, I think it’s safe to say that with some modification it probably could. So this establishes that it’s clearly possible for a robot to do everything the game has to offer.

But my question is not is it possible, but rather, is it worth it.

Looking at some other robots revealed, we can see that they are much better at playing the goal and/or low branch game than NorCal’s robot.

2145z, while lacking ring mechanisms, is undoubtable the best goal-focused bot we’ve seen yet. It has capacity for 3 goals, and can quickly and efficiently lift goals externally onto the platform. And it has a mechanism to quickly snatch 2 neutral goals at once during auton. And it has a 6 motor drive so it can be faster than most other robots.

1469a is probably the best robot revealed so far at scoring rings on alliance goals. I’d go as far as to say it’s likely as fast at doing so as you’d ever need to be.

I’m not making any claims about which of these robots is better, because they’re all playing different aspects of the game, but I think it’s obvious that robots that ignore the tall goal are able to play the other aspects of the game much more efficiently.

So with that in mind, what does everyone think about the viability of going for the tall goal vs ignoring it and focusing on the other aspects of the game?

if you go for the tall goal, you have to sacrifice speed and efficiency in seemingly all other aspects of the game, you aren’t guaranteed to obtain the tall goal by any means, and even if you do get it, you are much easier to defend than a shorter, less ring focused robot. But you can tap into that huge point potential from the goal, and if you can successfully pull a fully loaded tall goal off, that’s an enormous advantage you have over your opponents.

if you don’t try to stack rings on the tall goal, you can focus more on the many other aspects of the game, such as goal controlling or scoring rings on alliance goals. This can make for a very effective strategy, even without any points from rings on the tall goal.

A robot like 1469a is only able to score 158 points (80 points from elevating 2 alliance goals, 30 points from parking robot, 48 points from rings on goals), which is less than a robot capable of doing everything (including tall goal) is, but I think it’d be able to do so a lot more consistently, since alliance goals can be reliably possessed and rings are in abundance.

And a robot like 2145z, while unable to score rings, would be able to get 200 points alone by putting 5 goals onto the platform from the side. However, these points are hardly reliable, since it requires gaining and retaining possession of all 3 neutral goals, which I think is a stretch even for a robot designed to gain possession of neutral goals as fast as possible.

Is a do it all robot the most competitive option? You have the ability to score the most possible points, and because of the wide variety of scoring options you’d have, you could easily adapt your strategy to fit each match. However you wouldn’t be able to do most aspects of the game as quickly as a simpler robot would. And if a do it all robot isn’t the most competitive option, what aspects of the game should be focused on?

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Apologies in advance for a slightly vague answer. I think what it will come down too in the end will be the skill level and especially experience of the teams. As you said the best way to score on the high goal is internally with a large lift (which type is best is another full discussion) and large lifts are difficult to build. Due to the nature of the game it is probably more time efficient and effective for less experienced teams to focus on other manners of scoring then the high goal because then they can build a very competitive but slightly simpler robot. I think some of the more experienced teams will go for the high branches and will find success with them but in many cases a simpler robot with a simpler scoring strategy could still win a match. It will also come down partially to region and what the strategies in different areas are.

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I think it comes down to whether or not other teams do it. If designing a robot to be able to take advantage of the Tall Goal means sacrificing some other aspects of the design, it would only be worth it if you’re able to take advantage of it most matches (if not all).

This becomes difficult if every team has realised the tall goal’s potential and have designed a robot around it. Because now instead of taking advantage of the tall goal - a previously untapped point potential, you have other teams fighting you for it.

Which mean it might become more important to have a robot design which can compliment your ally’s (in Tournament sense at least, Skills would be a different story).

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you also have to consider that a robot which doesn’t score rings on the tall goal, will objectively be able to reach the tall goal faster than one that does, because a simple robot can have a lighter, stronger, and faster drive than a more complex one.

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The thing is, a fast mogo robot could take away all of these points from your team very easier. If your opponent snatches the tall mogo, your tall scoring mechanisim is now kind of useless.

Especially when you consider the 2-3 or maybe 4 motors sacrificed to make such a mechanism, I dont think its worth it.

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this is the biggest concern I have.

The inherent nature of making a tall goal capable robot means you are less likely to obtain the very goal that you’re depending on for points.

Which makes me think the only viable way to score on the tall goal is in a way that doesn’t require a complicated, overly heavy, or motor-costly method. Which is probably possible, but seems extremely difficult.

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Personally, I think the tall goal is too much of a risk, regardless of how high of reward it has. With there only being 1 tall goal, it would be an all-out sprint to the goal; which, if you’re going all-in on a tall mogo design, you’ll probably only have a 4m drive, while your opponent might have a 6m, which will probably get there faster and snatch it.

This is the other issue. It is not a great idea to elevate the tall goal, and that puts you in a spot where you either have to a) leave the goal unattended while you balance your robot, or sacrifice the robot elevation points to keep hold of it. If you leave it unattended, then the opponent might sac one of their robot elevations to steal the goal last second (and probably win), or if you sacrifice the robot points, then 5 of the tall rings are just making up points that you’ve lost (3 robot, 2 for goal elevation).

The thing about tournament play is that you don’t necessarily have to score a ton of points, you just need more than the opponent. Obviously scoring a ton of points might help, but realistically the tall goal seems like too much of a hassle to bother, especially when you have 2 opponents trying to stop you.

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Another thing to consider is skills.

skills is completely different with the lack of defense, and a robot that can score on the tall goal will probably be necessary to win skills champ at high level events.

Because it’s not too hard to elevate all 7 goals during skills if you have an external goal lift, and I think it’s realistic that a robot would be able to elevate 6 goals as well as place a fully loaded tall goal in a zone in a skills match.

Is this a game where skills robots are entirely different than match robots?

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Although at first you can build a bot that can simply put mogos on platforms and have a very well ranked skills score eventually you will be edged out by teams that can also score even if it is just in the base of a goal so eventually I think designs for match and skills will converge a good amount but I think most skills bots will be more focused on mogos then putting rings all the way up posts and instead quickly dump the rings into bases

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You mention that you can get 32 points from the rings on the low branches. If you can get 4 rings per branchx2, and each branch is image ,
then that would give you 24 points, would it not?

In addition, are teams allowed to have 2 different robots for skills and teamwork?

apparently I just didn’t math right there, 8x3 is in fact 24 and not 32. Still a good amount of points though.

by teamwork I assume you mean normal matches. And the answer is yes, but not at the same competition. You can only have one robot per competition, but you could build a skills and a match robot, and take one to each event you attend, depending on if you want to focus on skills or matches at that event.

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With skills only events still being a thing, it’s extremely likely that people will have a skills bot and a match bot in my opinion.

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Are you allowed to score all 7 mogos )in skills or just 5(one alliance plus 3 neutral)?

Because if you are allowed to score all 7, mogo bot seems superior in general

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you can score all 7 goals. Goal lifting will be essential to winning skills, but 1 minute is more than enough time to lift 7 goals, so I think rings on the tall goal will become important in skills to exceed the 7 elevated goal points.

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I was part of the benton county fair tournament. While in some games, the alliance goals having rings was the deciding factor for who wins, the other 60 matches just showed how little the rings matter. The medium and tall mobos get knocked over right away, and some bots use that as a strategy to go knock them over the second they can. Yes, this was the first tournament of the game, but i think the medium and tall goals are not worth it in anyway.

hard to judge from that event considering the vast majority of robots were unable to score rings. And the ones that were couldn’t do it fast enough to be worth doing when goals were worth more points.

But as the season progresses, I think rings will become more and more important.

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I forgot to put it in my reply, but i agree that they will be more important. Right now, so few people have their final designs. Even a small little bar lift on the side should be fine. Small or medium mobos are probably the only ones though. I could be wrong, but the large one falls over so fast.

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This feels like it’s a scenario of "I can’t do anything efficient with this, so I’m just going to make sure you can’t either. I think as we get farther and father into the season, mogo tipping will become much less likely.

The smaller goals have way more potential than the tall goals, but I do agree that a good majority of ring scoring will likely come through the alliance goals.

So in skills you are able to use both platforms to score goals or just one?

In response to your statement, I think that a robot that focuses mainly on mogos will probably be the better all around bot compared to something like a NorCal robot with the dr4b. Maybe somebody will make a meta-disrupting bot, but i guess only time will tell.

In Robot Skills Matches, Teams play if they are on a “neutral” Alliance. Robots may freely manipulate Alliance Mobile Goals, Neutral Mobile Goals, and utilize either Platform. Therefore, the following “Alliance-specific” rules do not apply in Robot Skills Matches:
-SG3
-SG4
-SG6
-SG7

(From Appendix B)

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