Nested in detent, or not nested?

I feel like “nested” means that it is sitting will inside the valley of the detente. I do not think that Vex would could this flag as neutral, because then the definition of toggled becomes much harder to define. When does the flag become “un-nested” if it is moving from the top of the hill to the bottom? The easiest definition would be if the pointer rests all the way in the valley of the detente, and I feel that Vex would leave as little room for error as possible here.

That’s possible, but there has to be some variance if the little pointer thing. I hope they leave it to EPs, instructing them to give teams the benefit of the doubt. I want this flag to count as toggled, but I’m not sure about it in the current definitions.

I hope they don’t leave it to the EP’s and have a clear definition that doesn’t require a bunch of debate.

Which team do you give benefit of the doubt? In a skills match it would be pretty cut and dry. Having something like this a judgement call isn’t fair to either team, and just leads people to complaining about the reffing. Or worse yet, different calls from different locations.

The team who the flag is more toggled towards. This thread is relating to a skills run, so I was thinking more in terms of that. And maybe you’re right that leaving it to the EPs is a bad idea. But I can see that being more likely than issuing a blanket ruling using some complicated system to determine if the flag is toggled or not. Or, worse, issue if a blanket call that the flag doesn’t count, and further adding qualifications that have to be met before a flag is deemed toggled.

I’m not sure. There’s not much use in speculating while the Q&A is posted. (Unless they reference this thread.)

We have been to a tournament with this EXACT situation that determined the tournament champion in the finals on one flag. As there hasn’t been an official ruling at the date of the competition, it was up to the EP/headref to define what they thought the manual meant. They ruled that exact situation as “toggled” at that event.

Personally, I’ve been forced to call this, which actually changed the outcome of a match. I ruled that you have to be over the hump in order for it to count as toggled.

In defense of this claim, I couldn’t find anything in the rulebook, but I did find this tidbit in Appendix A, on page 10. Note that the diagram treats the “Neutral” section as a gap or range of positions, not just a straight line through the pole. Since the diagram seems to indicate that the vertical line containing the point of the Pointer is how to treat how the flag was Toggled, I assumed that you had to be completely out of the Detent in order to count as Toggled.
VRC 2018-2019 - Appendix A Rev5Page10.pdf (324 KB)

I think they were referring to if the pointer was EXACTLY ON the line as indicated in that diagram, whether or not it would be considered Toggled

This is a big problem if matches are being called differently.

In ITZ, the cone had to be “fully nested”, not just nested. This year, it just has to be “nested”. So if the pointer is between the two points of the detent, I would consider it nested, and not toggled (especially if there is no friction between the pointer and the detent).

I would expect that if the pointer is resting on the inner slope, the flag isn’t toggled, but if the pointer is resting on the outer slope, the flag would count as toggled.

If the pointer is perfectly centered on the point of the detent, the answer would depend on what the Q&A answer says, but I would lean towards counting it as toggled.

Your first two sentences seem completely contradictory to me. If it’s perfectly on the dividing line, how is it that much clearer that it’s on a specific side of the dividing line. Let me demonstrate mathematically. The magnitude of the angle from the center to the dividing line I’ll label x, and the angle the detent is from the center line I’ll label d:

The rules:
|d| > x --> scored
|d| < x --> neutral

How are we concluding mathematically that these statements imply |d| = x is scored or is neutral? < is not the same as ≤, and > is not the same as ≥.

I would say that “not nested” includes the dividing line and everything past the dividing line.

As the detents become more worn then the range of the highest point on the detent becomes larger. I don’t think the range of the neutral portion should increase.

I’ll add the obligatory, “until the GDC provides additional clarity”.

As to exactly on the line, I think an official ruling is needed. However, both at my competition and in the photo taken, it looked like the flag can travel just a little bit more in order to cross the point of being completely out of the Detent.

Ugh. I don’t like that definition though from a referee point of view. Many of us (you and I included) know that some field sets get an enormous amount of use. I can easily see the pointers wearing down and this becoming more commonplace. The easiest way to score would be that it neutral only if it is fully nested in the detent (I’m always looking for the easiest way to describe it to kids and the least controversial way :slight_smile: ). Trying to figure out if it has reached the apex on either side could be problematic if they start to round more and more.

FYI - The ruling is in: This situation should be considered toggled.

https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA/142