Petition to repeal R25 changes

VEX V5 General Discussion
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While constraints can fuel creativity, too many can destroy it. I personally think the new plastic limitations and ban on all 3D printed decorations is outrageous, and it needs to go. Below is a link to a petition to repeal the changes in R25 and the petitions statement of concern. I encourage everyone to sign it so we can bring back expression and innovation.

The Issue
Context: R25 Limits plastic to twelve pieces within 4"x8", as well as custom 3D-printed decorations, including license plates.

The limitations on custom plastic in VRC unnecessarily stifle innovation by capping both the size and number of plastic parts allowed on a robot. Engineering is about creative problem-solving, and restricting teams to just 12 small plastic pieces removes opportunities to experiment with unique mechanisms, lightweight structures, or custom mounts that could enhance performance. Allowing more freedom with custom plastic would better reflect real-world engineering, where teams iterate using a variety of materials to achieve optimal designs.

Additionally, the complete ban on 3D-printed plastic—even for non-functional decorations—limits teams’ ability to express identity and creativity. Custom 3D-printed elements can build team spirit, showcase branding, or add aesthetic flair to robots without affecting gameplay. These additions not only make competitions more visually engaging, but they also help students learn digital fabrication skills that are widely applicable in modern STEM fields. Repealing this restriction would modernize the competition and foster a more open, innovative design environment.

19 Likes
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Personally, I like the change … but I do not have to design robots, just manage events.

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I agree. I think the biggest problem is not inherit in limiting plastic use but is the over limitation of it. Specifically, the 4" x 8" limit kills any good this rule could do. A limit on the amount of plastic pieces you can use (for functional purposes, which isn’t specified but it really should be) is fine. It means teams will have to figure out ways to securely connect plastic pieces to stay within that limit while preventing breakage during a match (given that that would go over the limit and disqualify the robot).

Also, at the very least, banning custom 3d printed license plates is stupid. I don’t really care if they’re banned to make normal license plates functional, because I don’t think most teams use them in such a manner. And if a team does, and they’re not considered functional, that’s that team’s fault for not reading the game manual (it just needs to be specified).

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Im actually fine with a small modification to this rule. Im of the impression this change is to nerf the massive quantities of laser cut plastic, creating an unfair imbalance. What I think would be fine is an unlimited amount of pieces, however still have it all need to fit in a set of 12 4x8 pieces.

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I second this. I’m ok with a limit on total pieces, but the size limit is too small to fully utilize the plastic and 12 total parts is too little.

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The problem with this is that it doesn’t really solve the problem the GDC has. It just increases it since the surface area available goes from 288 square inches to 384 square inches. Causing the problem to worsen, instead of improve

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The assumption here seems to be that 3d printing is the only way to make things. You are free to make custom plates by hand within the size rules. Same for team-branding decoration. You could also have anything you want on your bot in the pits or the queue line to be more memorable – just has to come off easily for match time.

My reading of the plastic limit is that is about inspection and at-field compliance checks.

Teams are making a significant number of small connectors and guides and whatnot. This is clearly an area for innovation, I agree. It is a tough restriction for teams to be limited to 12 pieces. You technically get more area, but the max size of any one part is restricted.

However, for inspection, a large number of parts requires examining a diagram to count out each bit - something that cannot reasonably be accomplished at the field. With a large quantity of plastic parts, it is fairly easy to exploit the rule by adding a few pieces here and there after inspection, knowing the HR has no way to readily determine compliance.

There are also lots of teams that have decorative plastic in addition to functional, which muddies the inspection process.

Having a fixed number of pieces means a ref can fairly quickly recheck at the field if they need too - currently an impossibility.

11 Likes
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Re-read R25a - 12 total pieces including non-functional.

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The reason they changed this rule is because it’s very easy to break and it’s very hard for inspection judges to check if you violate this rule, because this actually technically increases the amount of poly you can have on your robot.

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I meant more so that it should be only inclusive of functional purposes, not non-functional. That was a mistype from me

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I think the plastic pieces change is a good change, but the ban on 3-d printed license plates is just not a good idea

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I really don’t see the problem with the license plate change. Wouldn’t it be legal to midfy the vex plates? Meaning sanding the bumpy edges or spray painting them?

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This is a petition for not hust R25, but R19k and SG2 as well

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Hot take: personally I think this was a mostly positive change. At my school we don’t have access to a laser cutter so any poly we use has to be cut by hand, making it difficult to create small, precise pieces. This change allows teams that don’t have access to laser cutters or a CNC to be more competitive. If anything this rule forces teams to come up with more creative solutions to get around that constraint. I do agree that the nonfunctional decorations counting towards the 12 is stupid and limits expression.

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Unfortunately, the “decorations” did provide function of preventing items getting into structures, also hard for inspectors to verify that they were backed completely with legal materials. So, I guess the outcome is to make all plastic functional with restriction on number of pieces and max size per piece. Seems a reasonable balance that all teams will figure out.

10 Likes
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While I emphasize with inspectors having to figure out if a robot is in the plastic limit with the old rules, the new one is far too limiting imo. A ton of common uses of plastic are simply impossible now, and it stifles creativity by getting rid of the only part of VRC which allows teams to actually manufacture their own parts.

Plastic is often used for pieces which need to be larger then 4x8 and are not very feasible to replace with metal. An intake ramp made with metal instead of plastic would be much heavier, would be impossible to have smooth curves, and would generally preform much worse. Other common parts are long but thin strips, which can now be no longer than 8.94 inches, and wedges/skirts which require large pieces.

The limit of 12 pieces is far too small as well. Plastic parts are often doubled up for strength, but now that each layer counts separately, a single doubled-up part takes up 1/6 of your entire plastic limit no matter how small it is. This makes the 12-piece limit even smaller then it already is. My team’s worlds robot has >40 plastic pieces (which is a lot, but I know some teams have used way more), and while a lot of these could technically be made without plastic, they would almost all lose some function, the robot would be significantly worse looking, and many of the parts are still impossible without plastic. My team’s mid-season/states robot was a hood-redirect, and it would straight-up not have been possible without significantly compromising functionality to make within the new plastic limits

In addition, the rule doesn’t help lessen the skill gap between teams with more or less money (ie laser cutters). My team hand-cut every piece of plastic on every one of our robots up until our worlds robot this year, and we never really noticed any disadvantage because of it. The only real advantages a laser cutter gives are nicer looking cuts, slightly higher precision, and easier pocketing, none of which are important for actual functionality. In fact, we still hand-cut many of the pieces on the worlds robot even though we had access to a laser cutter because it was simply easier to spend 15 minutes cutting a piece instead of the day+ wait for the laser cutter.

I think a compromise could be reached between inspectability and creativity though. I feel like it would work a lot better if the rule were changed to allow 2-4 “big pieces,” 8-10 “medium pieces,” and 4-6 “small pieces,” or something along those lines (these are just random numbers off the top of my head). This would be easier then the old rule to ref because it relies on plastic quantities instead of sizes, but it still allows for both big pieces and a bunch of small pieces

1 Like
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Am I reading the R25 wrongly?
I thought we will have more than the usual amount to use?

Previous season = 12" x 24" = 288" sqinch

Current season:

a. Each Robot is limited to a maximum of 12 individual pieces cut from non-shattering plastic. This includes non-shattering plastic used in non-functional decorations.
b. Each individual piece of non-shattering plastic cannot be larger than 4” x 8” x 0.070”.

12 x 4 x 8 = 384 sqinch

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18

Then perhaps a better solution is to drop the limit on lexan alltogether

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It’s worth pointing out that there’s nothing stopping someone from using as much material as they would like for decoration - as long as it’s either technically “”“shattering”“” (without being a safety hazard), or not strictly speaking a plastic

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Don’t get me wrong, I am quite concerned with r25 and I believe they should repeal this or at least come to a compromise; however, I do want to also acknowledge some of the perspectives and reasons as to why the GDC have opted for this change.

1. Unfair advantage
I know with my own eyes that many people on this forum want vex to be fair and properly managed. People complain all the time about mentor built robots and unfair match affecting ref calls. Treat this rule change as such. The GDC is probably just trying to level the playing field. If you see the robots of high level teams such as Saratoga, gremlin, ace, echo, the use of plastic is insane. But it’s not just the use of plastic. its how they use it that makes the big difference. I am not entirely sure on this but im guessing these teams have access to many more advanced machinery such as CNC mills, water jets, or laser cutters. Yes private teams or teams with a low budget are able to just pick up a pair of scissors and start cutting poly. But the difference in quality and precision is just too much.

2. This is VEX robotics
VEX is a brand. they want to sell their pieces. I don’t want to make this paragraph sound like vex is a trillion dollar company or smth that just looks in its best interest, but remember that this competition is run by RECF and not VEX. If the only thing on robots that make robots look cool and nice is plastic and custom licence plates, VEX probably does not like that. Ig VEX as a brand wants people who do not do VEX to look at a competition robot and feel inspired to make something using the VEX materials; and if plastic misinterpretes VEX, then this is something they are going to change. This goes for licence plates too. Many people around the world, including me, are in the same boat. We strongly do not like this rule. However, the standard vex licence plates … in my opinion … are more closely themed with the actual VEX design and material. Therefore, ig VEX like told the REC or GDC that these things need to go.

My opinion
So far I have been yapping just on why I think they made these changes. However, I would also state my opinion which would align more closely with those in our community.

I am saddened by the plastic limitations for a variety of reasons

  1. better robot functionality
  2. more creativity
  3. cleaner looking robots
  4. provides training and opportunities to learn more advanced techniques
  5. more aligned with the real world
  6. makes teams more competitive

I think that these are just some of the reasons which I believe out weighs the reasons of the GDC. This programs should be giving students with the opportunities to learn manufacturing and design similar to the real world. Let’s be serious, designing plastic pieces on CAD is the only V5RC thing that people do in the real world (Besides screwing and documentation). Not importing a parts library and moving things around.

There are also a number of other key factors which are a little bit hidden. such as what are teams or schools going to do when they just bought a brand new $20000 laser cutter/CNC mill just to find out that custom parts are limited. Im just going to say that many teams are not as privileged to have a $10000 budget per season, and even if these machines costed $50 it would still be a large dip in budget. Remember that cost for parts, and flights to worlds and what not already take up so much money. How does the GDC expect people to react when their new/old machine becomes very much obsolete. What about teams with large inventory of plastic. With these new rules it could take years for these teams to use it up.

Regarding custom licence plates
Honestly, yes, it’s quite the upset, and it is disappointing to see that the GDC does not even what to decorate our robots with 3D printed parts or whatnot. However, I think this rule is the least of our concerns. I think people just have to get used to it. Yes it is a bummer, but even in the real world things are not going to go your way and you have to learn to cope with it. Therefore, while it may be disappointing, I don’t think it impacts the robots performance or anything like the plastic rule, so it shouldn’t be that big of an issue.

Closing up I would love to hear/see your responses and/or opinions regarding anything I have said, I do hope that the GDC does at least expand the plastic rule.

Here is a following image of the plastic that I actually used in my high stakes bot which fit in the old size constraints:

Screenshot 2025-04-25 at 9.58.36â¯PM
Screenshot 2025-04-25 at 9.58.36â¯PM1342×724 119 KB

As you can see I did use quite the fair share or plastic myself.

bye

3 Likes