Is there an official process for the post match procedure? We were at a competition today and saw many items where we disagreed with the ruling on the field, both for our team and other teams. I realize its early in the season and there is learning going on, there were many inconsistencies.
We have been to matches in the past where the count for each alliance is taken and shown to the alliance prior to submitting (each seeing only their score). Here, we were afforded no chance. In addition, since videos are not allowed, there is no form of dispute, since it may be a match or two before we see the score. At that that point, you are only left to suck it up. Regardless of who made the wrong count, the official one is the one that was turned in, and thats that.
So, the question is - was this event correct? Is it left ot the ones running the event to decide on whether a review process will happen, or is the review process supposed to happen and they just didn’t follow procedure here?
One or two bad calls is one thing, and we didn’t have a great day, so I’m not trying to get something we didn’t deserve. However there were many occurences of miscounts of caps, mis score of flags and multiple times autons were awarded to the wrong teams and it was called out seconds before driver started so it could be corrected.
I understand that video would most likely drag the matches on quite long, but an immediate chance for a voice on the field to say somethign for a gross error could go a long way to controlling bad feelings. Over the past 5 years the competition is growing tougher and tougher and teams are getting more and more competitive. Bad experiences like this may cause poor attendance at future events unless this is taken care of.
For Mt. SAC’s competition, we had each team assign one person to record of their match and had refs count the score and ask the teams if they agree with it at the end of the match. As I remember it, many of the teams also counted and verified our scores.
So if you’re asking if this event was right, I would say no.
Generally, referees who point to scoring objects and verbally what is being scored will allow teams to see where errors may be scored and get feed back from them.
Disputes about scoring and application of rules should be addressed to Head Referee. Objects and robots should not be cleared until scoring is finalized. Once objects and robots are removed from field it is impossible to recount the points.
As for Autonomous switches, which are usually due to data entry mistakes, and all four teams agree it is an error, they may approach the Head Referee to have the Autonomous Bonus swapped in Tournament Manager.
I would recommend that teams carry Game Manual and specific Q&A with them. Have one team member represent the team. Do not have an adult serve as spokesperson for the team (generally, the less mob mentality the better). Once the question has been posed to the Head Referee, take a physical step back and listen respectfully (you would be surprised how effective a composed team influences the referees decision process). Make sure to be instructive vs combative - “maybe we misunderstood G12 in relation to the alliance platform, this Q&A seems to cover our situation… are we missing something?” vs “You made the wrong decision, any one with a brain knows it.” Allow other teams to have their say. Once the dispute is answered by the Head Referee, that is the final decision for the tournament. You can reach out to your RECF Regional Support Manager if you believe an event is being incorrectly managed. The RSM will work with EPs and the Head Referees to improve their practice.
I agree with @lacsap. Keep a game manual on you. The easiest way to do this is to download the VRC Hub and then use that to download the Turning Point manual. This also allows you to search the game manual and score a match.
As far as issues where the referees know the rules but count wrong, there’s only so much you can do. Sometimes they can check their paper scores because they made a mistake when transferring numbers from the paper to the tournament manager. If it happens in autonomous, I would try to calculate the auto score yourself and if the referees announce the wrong winner, try to stop them as quickly as you can before driver control starts.
We always have two people score each match and then check results against each other before submitting. If there is a discrepancy, the two scorers work through what’s on the field together to see where the miscount was.
If a match is close (2-3 points) we’ll usually recount even if we agree to make sure.
We used to have reffs verify scores with teams before submitting, but it got to the point that teams would take forever to look over the scores. Now we have two reffs score separately and verify with each other. We did this to get back to a reasonable match cycle time. If teams have questions about scores, they are answered as long as it is asked within a reasonable amount of time.
It seems to me that refs should announce the scores directly following the match. Teams should be counting along with them at that point, so they can challenge if needed.
Yeah, we scored our own during the match, both on the field with the girls and the mentors in the seats. Once the referees/judges got their scores, they said they were good and the field was cleared. No announcements of their scores. Since it took multiple matches to get scores posted and up, there was no possibility of any sort of review, or anything. Thus we had to suck it up.
I can understand not wanting to delay the match. I want to get home after a long tournament as well. So I wouldn’t want to have things delayed waiting for alliances to tally their points. The only thing I can think of is if an allilance can’t come up with their score within a 5 count of the ref announcing his, its called. If the alliance doesn’t understand the game enough or care enough to be able to score, oh well… they get what they get.
We did call autonomous a couple times, prior to the driver portion being called. Plus we called on some field elements not being set correctly. Caps in the wrong state prior to starting the match.
Overall, it was pretty rough. We didn’t do great, as it was our first match regardless of the missed items, but it was still rough…