It has been interesting following this thread, I have one or two comments.
I believe (and want to continue to believe) that the participants in the VEX robotics competition are some of the best students in the world. I believe that even those who, in an act of bravado, say they know how to break the rules will not break the rules in practice. I hope the mentors and coaches for these students have enough integrity that they would not lead these students to “the dark side”.
There are known ways to “improve” the performance of some components in the VEX robotics system. The majority of those involved in VEX have no clue how to do this, those that do know would not make the improvements so that they are detectable in any reasonable way. Many of these smart people that know how to make such modifications will be working in official capacities at events such as worlds, they are interacting with the teams all day and, to be honest, they are smarter than the potential cheaters and would notice such things.
“performance enhancing” modifications would have little to do with the ultimate success of a team. Driving skill, strategy, scouting, programming, reliability and luck have everything to do with success. Those that consider cheating in any way would best devote their time and effort to the pursuit of excellence in those fields.
I don’t think banning a team for life is ever a good course of action. We must remember that this is an educational competition, and not a professional sport.
I agree, an inspection of only motors would be far more practical, although some robots have motors that are extremely difficult to remove, and would require considerable work to get off anyway :p. I could see this inspection being done by a dedicated team of volunteers overnight though, I expect this would be ok as most teams would stay in the general area of the competition at least till the next day so they could pick their robots up? Although maybe not, I’m viewing this as an international competitor.
The problem with simply awarding the Champions title to the Finalists is that every team who lost to the team caught cheating, both in qualifications AND eliminations, would’ve been cheated out of a chance to win worlds. Perhaps the division quarter finalists who lost to the cheating alliance could’ve won otherwise? We have no idea, and thus it isn’t exactly fair to award the title to the finalist team.
Obviously just letting a cheating team win isn’t a very valid solution either. The only perfect solution I can think of would be to thoroughly inspect every robot before the competition begins, but this would just simply take too long and be too much work. My hope is that competitors sense of honour, or perhaps fear of being caught, will be enough to stop them from cheating in these ways, and additional inspection won’t be required. But maybe I’m just being naive :p.
On a similarly unrelated note, see you at worlds! I hope we get the chance to compete against each other! Looking forward to seeing some innovative robots and excellent competition!
This would be absolutely amazing. I see no reason that this couldn’t be done, other than the clear cases perhaps interfering with IMEs? Changes in lighting could be adverse to function perhaps? Although I can’t say I’m particularly knowledgeable on how they work :o. Not having to check every single gear when I have a broken motor would be such a time saver.
I wouldn’t say naïve, maybe just a little too trusting. Even the best and the brightest cheat. The fear of being caught is not enough specially when there is no extra threat of scrutiny then a stringent look at the robot as a whole during inspections. The level of cheating we are talking about will not be seen in a normal level of inspection. Thus if you know there is nothing more than the usual, you don’t have a fear of being caught.
But I do agree that there is no real good solution for determining what happens after someone has been caught.
So being banned isn’t an educational moment for both the banned party and the community as a whole? If you want to argue that it’s not the correct course of action that’s fair and the whole point of these discussions but to say people wouldn’t learn from such an incident would be a mistake. Again I will stipulate I am just bringing a point that something should be done, be it ban for life or be it something else.
I would agree that these are some of the best students in the world but even the best make mistakes. I would agree that I hope mentors and coaches for these students have enough integrity not to lead them down to the “dark side”. But what if someone was caught cheating?
I would agree that the majority of people in VEX don’t know how to improve the performance of their components but that doesn’t mean it still can’t be done. I would also agree that those that do know would make them so they are not detectable in any reasonable way. Thus if you want to find those that have potentially cheated you would need to increase the level of scrutiny, thus the level of inspection right now wouldn’t find what we are talking about. We all agree that a deeper level of inspection before Worlds would be challenging at best, impossible at worst, thus a post inspection would be the best way to handle it.
The people may be “smarter” than the cheaters in some fashion but saying they can find the level of cheating we are describing from simple inspections is unlikely in the extreme, you even said it yourself. It would be like saying you can look at an athlete and tell that they are taking PEDs.
I would agree to a certain extent. The point of cheating is to give an advantage over other teams. Thus if you take a team with the same level of driving skill, strategy, and so forth, you don’t have a level playing field because one teams has an advantage of enhanced capabilities. I think everyone would agree with you that everyone should devote their time and effort to the pursuit of excellence in those fields.
Good question and things like that make you wonder what is the best solution. Any sort of ban brings the question of enforcement.
That’s the whole point, discussion as a community. Though I would love to hear from VEX or RECF on this.
Currently because it’s against the rules (R15).
I will again stipulate that I am suggesting as the OP said that the idea of post Worlds inspection would be a good thing. The exact consequences if caught are good things to discuss and I don’t hold that life ban is the only solution just that it is a possible solution.
Hello,
I am in support of this idea. It would save lots of time trying to figure out whats wrong with a motor, instead of dissembling it and looking at each gear. In the past there have been times where we were not sure if the motor was speed or torque, ( We mark ours but there is always that chance of someone forgetting to mark it. ) which leaves us wondering… and it leads to more time wasted on small things.
It would also look cool as said by Owen
There was a thread for new vex product ideas, I’m not sure if it has already been asked, I didn’t see it as I went through it, so I think it should be posted there so it gets recorded as a possible “new vex product”
Back on topic, these motor casings would contribute to the cause that is being discussed. Teams would be less likely to modify them,( if they do at all ) because its simply easier to see. However I do believe that vex teams, at least the dedicated ones, have an honor code that comes with being in the community. Teams we see at worlds are there for a reason, and they wouldn’t dare dishonor their teams by cheating of any sort. But sadly, there is always the possibility of someone slipping up now and then. Which is why I am in support of a re-inspection, now taking it apart completely, is a bit far, Lets be honest, taking apart your average six bar wont really get you anywhere on terms of finding out if someone is cheating. Taking apart motors may lead to things otherwise… Which is why I am in support of a re-inspection, or at least a more thorough inspection. Teams sometimes fit in the 18 by 18 by 18, then afterwards they add a feature and its just slightly out, maybe just a re-sizing might help to.
If this goes through, and its a good idea for a more thorough inspection ( not dissembling at all) , however this will have to be planned by the VEX officials, it would be up to them to do so in their own professional manner.
I would like to point out that for 99.9% of teams, there are no cheaters when it comes to the robot (I’m not going to deny bending game rules). That is, teams who will cheat and try to cover it up are virtually nonexistent. It would be illogical to change the way competitions run for for the 0.1%. So statistically insignificant that it would be insane to even mention it. Of course, the 0.1% affects the 99.9% so something should be done to make the 0.1% become 0.0%. But should we have to change the way competitions are run just to fish out that 0.1%, who, for most competitions, don’t even exist? I say leave the system as is. Put whoever needs to be scrutinized carefully, scrutinized carefully when it is determined it is needed. Making everybody more thoroughly inspected just eats up time competing and learning and chances are that nothing will be found.
Please list your source for these statistics as I would really like to comb through the data.
But again I believe the OP, myself and a number on this post have agreed that pre-worlds inspection on such a level would be extremely difficult. I believe that is why the OP suggested something post-worlds. But lets not forget this whole thing is because of an incident from Worlds last year, and this thread is a continuation of that thought process of where it came from.
Yes, the statistic is made up. But I think that 0.1% is being generous… this debate stemmed from one team making a comment about their robot being overzealously inspected at Worlds from an accusation… and they weren’t actually doing anything illegal. I’m giving the argument the benefit of the doubt because I don’t know the actual numbers. I would love to see statistics that the value is greater than 0.1%.
I’m not saying that post-Worlds inspection is a bad thing, but I do agree with Telemascope: post-competition will, at best, confirm the worst for the cheated out of competition teams. The only consolation that teams would get would be that the cheaters didn’t get the award.
This debate did not stem from that. Actually, I was having a similar conversation with the coach of a very well known club at a recent tournament who advocated this very plan. I’m seeing some similarity in location/history between those advocating in this thread, and am a little curious to know where this idea started. (Or, if multiple people just thought of it at once.)
One side effect of this plan that I have not seen mentioned is: If you expect people to cheat, more people will; if you expect them to behave honorably, more people will. Yes, there will always be cheaters.
But, right now, I’m happy enough to be trusted not to cheat and live with a few cheaters.
That is the point, we really don’t know and guessing at the numbers doesn’t do us any good. I would agree that the number is likely a very small percent but again we just don’t know.
If you suspected cheating from a team, wouldn’t you like to know if it was true or not? Whats the point of having rules about robot parts if it is never ever checked?
Again I am not saying anyone has cheated or that I suspect teams of cheating. Just saying a system that inspected all teams that made it into the World Finals would be fair. As the OP stated, this is not a new idea to competitive sports.
Ideas are talked about by many people, sometimes they a put onto forums because they are good questions that need to be asked. We shouldn’t be afraid to talk about the tough issues or the issues that people don’t want to hear. This is both I believe and it needs to be addressed and thoroughly considered by all parties involved (VEX, RECF, students, coaches, mentors). As VEX continues to get larger and larger the issues need to be address before a large incident occurs forcing the issue upon the community (likely in a way that makes no one happy).
I mean if we wanted to be even more like professional sports, there’s the idea of random inspections, which no one would like more.
I say in terms of being fair, an inspection shouldn’t concern themselves with “They’ve got a good record, we don’t have to worry about them”. Anyone can cheat, that’s the main thing.
Rules shouldn’t only be made when things come up, they can be made to prevent things or act as a deterrent.
One thing, that I know few people will agree with because of safety reasons, that I haven’t heard mentioned here: Make modifying motors legal. Much of the legality talk seems to revolve around motor modifications. It’s impossible to check without terribly inconveniencing everyone involved, so just make little changes to motors legal. Most other things can be checked with a random inspection and only take 5 minutes.
And because I know someone will imply it: No, I do not modify my motors, and no, I am not trying to make cheating or whatever you want to call it legal. Just an idea, remember that before going on a rant.
If its legal then we don’t need to check for cheating in at least this aspect. Motor modification isn’t the only way to cheat, but it would be the hardest to check at a simple inspections.
No one is saying you do, I don’t believe anyone is trying to call out a team or say any team has cheated in the past.
Random inspections seem like a real headache. Inspections for all teams in eliminations I can understand. But again this particular idea would happen after the competition. Reactionary rules are almost always a determent to people involved, making rules before it happens is a much better course of action. Plus from the original post this discussion started how can you have favoritism if you apply the same rules to every team?
When former professional or Olympic athletes are asked “Why did you do steroids/blood dope/break the rules?” the most common response is “I had to. Everyone else was doing it.”
Quite frankly I have yet to see a VEX team ‘cheat’, so I’m pretty confident that there is no need to cheat… but it never hurts to make reasonable steps to ensure that it stays this way.
A post-worlds inspection, similar to a drug test at the Olympics, would be an effective way… but also a very dissatisfying way to address this concern. My fellow Canadians, of an age to remember Ben Johnson, will no doubt agree.
So far I have heard of two proposed ways that teams could “cheat” in a way detectable via tech inspection: Modifying the motors, and modifying the batteries.
The VEX batteries likely fall into a very narrow range of weights. It would not be unreasonable, if this was a concern, to have teams weigh their batteries as part of a tech inspection process… and each battery that meets the weight standard could be marked with a non-removable sticker. If we really needed to get sticky with this, it wouldn’t be too difficult to determine the internal resistance of a battery to ensure that a team’s battery soes not fall outside the known range of internal resistances for VEX legal batteries. Alternatively teams could be loaned fully-charged, brand new batteries for key matches.
The VEX motors also have known performance characteristics. Rather than a post-event inspection they can simply be unplugged from the speed controller, their mechanism can be held in place to ensure the motor is stalled, and then plugged in to a low voltage power source. Measure the current and compare it to a known range of stall currents for VEX motors and a motor with different windings is going to stand out like a sore thumb. More significantly, the characteristics of the internal breakers are also well known. Simply increase the current to the motor and time how long it takes the breaker to trip. Any tampering with the breaker should be reasonably easy to detect. All of this can be done with the motor in place in a matter of minutes with the correct test equipment.
Personally, I don’t believe these extra steps are worthwhile at present or even that they are likely to be needed in the future. I believe the spirit of honest and fair competition is alive and well. But if that were ever to change, then there are alternatives to the post event “drug test” that would help to reassure teams that they can win… that they can ONLY win… by playing clean.
Having done extensive testing on PTCs a couple of years ago, this is not quite as straightforward as it sounds. PTC performance can vary quite significantly, motors would, at a minimum, need to be kept at a stable temperature for several hours before measurement. The difference between a PTC tripping after 30 seconds vs 15 seconds would give a performance advantage but could still be considered to be within spec.
Where’s the “rep” or “like” button on this forum? Now that you mention it, I remember reading that post a while back. As usual, your report is very thorough.
And it is also of practical interest to teams who are looking for ways to legally maximize the performance of their motors. Storing a robot in a small bar fridge between matches sounds like a promising idea! (Although testing motors for variation in PTC trip points is probably a more practical one.)
I did note, however, that at certain currents (5 amps?) and post-trip cooling times that performance seemed to converge. Testing a wide range of legal VEX motors would make it possible to find a current/time combination representative of the “most durable” unmodified PTCs. Motors that exceeded a specified time-to-trip at that current could be pulled for further inspection. Alternatively a cycle of two or three successive trips and brief cooling periods might better characterize the performance of the PTCs as installed in the motor… it would be an imperfect method of screening, perhaps, but certainly a disincentive for anyone who planned on simply shorting out around the PTC.
This wouldn’t catch every modified motor, but it would mean that modified motors would not be able to exceed the capabilities of the most durable unmodified motors and quickly identify flagrant violations of the rules that might otherwise pass unnoticed.
I guess my main point is that catching rule violations in advance is preferable to a post-event ‘drug test’ type inspection and that there are some ways to screen for flagrant, but otherwise invisible, rule violations.
Thankfully, I don’t think it is really necessary to do this at present. Just as high performance athletics once had a culture of “You’ve got to cheat because everyone else is.”, VEX has so far successfully cultivated a culture of “You don’t ever want to cheat. No one else is doing it and you’d be an outcast.”
But still… awesome data on the PTCs. If a team had a log book showing a process of testing different motors to find the most durable ones, I’d definitely take note of that were I judging.
This “cheating” is why I think the new Vex battery charger rule came into being. Overcharging batteries or using after market batteries to drive more voltage is probably more malicious in my mind. So PTC removal is not the only means of cheating out there.
But back to PTC’s… I’ve seen teams bring bags of ice and put them on their constantly tripping motors to alleviate the situation. Sort of worked but not really.
May I suggest to those who are experiencing PTC tripping to investigate jpearman’s/vamfun’s smart motor library? Start there and see when you might be in trouble through some handy LED indicators available in the library. (Then re-design your robot for less torque needs.)
Removing the PTC would just make the stalling continue I would think and not be very good to the motor or Cortex. Unless the PTC itself was bad that is. Then pay $15 and try another one out of the motor quality lottery.
I would be good with some of the method described to test motors, but I would still be concerned about the time required to do that testing before the finals in Worlds. Sounds like you guys would have a much better idea though of how such a testing would be implemented and how quickly it could be done.
We do have a good idea of how such testing would be done, but doing this for multiple robots (15 for high school , three from each division) I don’t think is practical. We have also focused on just motor modifications, there are several other potential areas where performance could be enhanced. I don’t want to turn this thread into the “anarchist’s cookbook for VEX” so I’m not going to mention any of the others or how we would test for these infringements.
