Sorry previously posted this under IQ, I deleted that topic and am reposting it here.
We just had our first league night and are wondering how other refs are calling this. Is it holding if a robots only avenue for escape is over the center barrier and it can’t get over the center barrier? Is it holding if a robots only avenue for escape is under the horizontal elevation bar but it can’t because its to tall?
Last year it was initially ruled if you couldn’t get over the low goal barriers it wasn’t trapping. Later in the season they reversed that decision.
Last year’s rule do not apply to this season, and situation you reference is not accurate, as it was not permissible to pin a robot on low barrier in specific orientations… (hence why it is important to refer to specific rules in this season’s Game Manual…)
So, please refer to specific definition/rules regarding holding for this season’s game - then maybe we can offer some clarification. Do note, that the Official Q&A on RobotEvents is the sole source for official answers to questions/clarification with regards to this season’s Game. asking for other referee’s opinions do not provide necessary clarification or interpretations with regards to Game Manual outside of a specific event.
As lacsap points out, this is likely going to need a Q&A ruling. As you indicate, it is a similar situation to the low barrier trapping issue last season.
Broadly, the ruling last year was that if you failed to design your robot in a way that allows it to transit the low barrier, you cannot claim that as an argument in a trapping situation. Given that the very name of this year’s competition is Over Under, I would assume that the design intent of the game is that robots are capable of going both over and under.
Trapping that occurs in a direction that a robot should reasonably be capable of transiting the obstacle may well be ruled as allowed in a Q&A. An example might be an inline drive with wheels perpendicular to the barrier or horizontal elevation bar that is to low to the ground or too tall could be “trapped” legally – the expectation would be the bot should have been designed to escape those situations.
Only my opinion in a though experiment. Ruling will eventually arrive.
Last years rules not applying is exactly what I told the student who brought that up.
The only applicable rule I see is G16 and it is not helpful in clarifying this. Here is the definition from the manual of holding including just the part about trapping. The way I read this definition is the robot does have an avenue for escape over the barrier or under the bar depending on which situation it is.
Holding - A Robot status. A Robot is considered to be Holding if it meets any of the following criteria during a Match:
Trapping - Limiting the movement of an opponent Robot to a small or confined area of the field, approximately the size of one foam field tile or less, without an avenue for escape. Note that if a Robot is not attempting to escape, it is not considered Trapped.
I did submit a question to the Q&A. In the meantime we are hosting events and have to call it or not call it. I’m not asking for an official answer here. I’m asking how others are interpreting this right now.
I don’t know about you guys, but when I look at rule g16 and the definition of holding, it is pretty clear what to enforce. Nothing in the rule references robot direction or build choices. The only think that is referenced is if the robot is attempting to escape. With that in mind, pinning an opposing robot against the barrier, elevation bars, or even the goal IS pinning and should be enforced with with a 5 count. I hope this is helpful!
G16 not clear you can’t just look at the rule and ignore the definition of holding. The definition of holding says trapping is “without an avenue for escape”. Is over the barrier or under the bar an avenue for escape? Pinning is a lot more nuanced. If we can get an answer on trapping it will help clarify pinning in this scenario.
As someone else said the name of the game is “Over/Under”.
I see the definition, and I agree that there is a little bit of room for technicality, but consider this. When a robot is pinned, there is technically always an avenue for escape, but the pinning robot is blocking access to this avenue.
In contrast, would you say pinning a robot to the goal is not pinning because they shouldn't have built their robot so tall that they cannot go under the goal?
What about pinning against a wall? Should you have built your robot to have a stronger drivebase?
If the CDC rules that pinning does not apply to teams that made build choices that allow them to be pinned, they will uproot the definition of pinning. Just my 2 cents.
Trapping is not the same as pinning
If the trapping robot is blocking access this is no longer a valid avenue for escape because the robot cannot escape because the avenue of escape is blocked meaning they cannot escape through that avenue.
Looking at the definition of pinning it’s pretty clear that it is “Preventing the movement of an opponent Robot through contact with the Field Perimeter, a Field or Game Element, or another Robot.” While GDC rules from last year don’t exactly carry over to this year I think it is worth looking at how the GDC ruled this last year Low Goal Barrier Trapping based on this ruling I think they would rule it as pinning.
This is taking it to unreasonable extremes but I think the main thing that would make it pinning is if you are trying to escape and cannot it is pinning.
Also, I don’t think you did it on purpose but the text box makes it really hard to read.
My apologies I have no idea why it did that. I thought I deleted the post before it was approved but apparently not.
You have a valid argument, and I can see how the barrier could be an avenue for escape. I saw a thread somewhere that discussed last year’s pinning against the hump. I think that until we have Q&A clarification, some of the points discussed there are applicable. My prediction is that the Q&A will rule that holding a robot against the barrier is holding and should be enforced with a 5-count.
