Rings of alliancemogos are the only scores of auto?!

Does anyone know how exactly is the autonomous scoring of tipping point?

If it’s true that only rings scored on the alliance mogos counts after autonomous then we may really gona do this
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we’re actually going to a tournament next week so is there anyone who has already participated in events can answer to this question?

There is currently a Q&A question about this, so keep an eye on that to see if it gets clarified before your competition.

There is also another thread about this question (linked here), which contains other people’s analysis of the rule and how likely it is for the alliance mobile goals to be the only place to score in autonomous.

The definition of Scored for mobile goals mentions “at the end of the Match”, and another Q&A question said platforms don’t count as Balanced during autonomous due to similar wording in that rule, so the current rules sound like rings on alliance mobile goals would be the only place to score, although I would have assumed VEX would want all mobile goals and all rings on them to be one of the ways to score in autonomous, too, so they might update the rule to make this the case.

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as of now, yes, rings on alliance goals are the only thing that can contribute to winning auton. I don’t think this is entirely intended, because if it was I think the manual would explicitly say so to avoid confusion. Hopefully the gdc will answer the question very soon before events start happening, because I imaging the large majority of teams, referees, and event partners probably aren’t aware that the manual technically only gives points for auton for rings on alliance goals.

I also hope the gdc will make a manual update that explicitly states what objectives are worth points for winning auton, because it’s going to be a real problem if a team who isn’t on the forum or the Q&A spends hours making a super complicated and amazing auton, only to find out at an event that nothing they do is worth points.

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image

:thinking:

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I am not on the GDC, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so we need to wait for the Q&A clarification and / or the version 1.1 or 2.0 manual update. Nevertheless, I don’t see a hard requirement for the end of the match. There are 2 ways to score a mobile goal:

  1. In an alliance home zone
  2. Elevated on a balanced platform

While the definition of elevated requires the end of the match, the alliance home zone definition is valid throughout the entire match.

You are correct that the ‘Scoring Notes’ specifies the end of the match. I suspect we will see a Q&A clarification specifying that points from mobile goals in the alliance home zone count for purposes of the autonomous bonus.

This is may be nit picking, but the autonomous bonus is awarded to the alliance that has EARNED the most points, not SCORED the most points. Points earned in autonomous are not ‘safe’ throughout the match, so you can argue they aren’t scored until the end of the match.

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And you could make the same argument to allow elevated points, but the GDC already came down with a hard no on that one, so following precedent there’s no mogo scoring either as of this point in time.

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Expect that most current Q&A not to be answered on robot events given that GDC will issue new Game Manual July 27… As indicated this release will be Q&A Clarifications.

August 31 wil be final release for season until next release of Game Manual in December.

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yes, but take a look at this definition:

A Mobile Goal is considered Scored in an Alliance Home Zone if, at the end of the Match, any part of the Mobile Goal Base is contacting the Alliance Home Zone.

so actually the only way to earn any points at all towards auton is rings on an alliance goal. Because the definition of elevated specifies it must be at the end of the match, and the definition of a goal scored in an alliance home zone also specifies that it must be at the end of the match. And since rings on neutral goals are only worth points for a goal which is scored in an alliance home zone, rings on alliance goals cannot be worth any points at the end of auton.

Therefore, rings on alliance goals are the only points that do not rely on being at the end of the match, and are the only way to earn points towards auton.

Obviously this cannot stand as is, it takes an extreme amount of manual scrutiny to come to this conclusion, much more than I would ever expect someone to use. In fact, it took the entire forum over a month to come to this conclusion.

Either this fact needs to be explicitly stated in the manual to avoid mass confusion at events, or the definitions need to be changed to allow more things to be scored not just at the end of the match.

I don’t believe the current way that auton is scored is what the gdc intended, or else they would have said so explicitly, but that’s clearly what the manual rules as of now.

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@LuxembourgIsACountry:
I think their clarification makes sense. The definition of elevated specifically includes the end of the match, so it is impossible for a goal or robot to meet that definition until the end of the match.

@Xenon27
The only place the end of the match appears referencing mobile goals in the alliance home zones is in the ‘Scoring Notes’ section. Calling a ‘Note’ a ‘Definition’ is severely stretching the meaning of the word ‘Note’.

That being said, I completely agree with you that the GDC needs to clarify this, as there is a credible question on what counts at the end of autonomous. Honestly, all they need to do is remove the ‘End of the match’ verbiage from the ‘Scoring Notes’ section, and specifically call out that elevated goals only count at the end of the match.

Can you imagine having to write so clearly that OCD nuts like us can’t find any ambiguity? GDC honestly does a pretty remarkable job with the manual, all things considered.

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well, the scoring notes are all that we have in terms of scoring, so I think they’re meant to be taken as literally as definitions.

But yeah I agree that there will still be confusion, because it takes an incredible amount of scrutiny to determine what does or doesn’t count for auton once you fall down that rabbit hole.

They should definitely remove the “at the end of the match” phrase, it seems entirely unnecessary. if they want to prevent the platforms from being used during auton, they should explicitly say so, not through an obscure phrase in a definition.

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Like @lacsap said and @Jon_Jack seems to have implied, I’m guessing the clarification of this rule will be in the July 27th manual update, and if they’re planning to make it legal to score neutral mobile goals in autonomous (or score rings on them), that might be best to save for a manual update so they don’t have to contradict the manual in the Q&A.

I had been hoping for the Q&A question to be updated before July 27th so it could be ready in time for the OP’s competition, but now I realize the manual update will be Wednesday and the competition will probably be Saturday, so the teams at that competition should at least have a few days to prepare (and the GDC might need more time to decide on their ruling anyway).

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The new manual update seems to have not fixed or addressed any of these concerns regarding points contributing to auton.

I would really have liked to see it clarified explicitly what does or doesn’t count for auton in the manual, to avoid the large amounts of confusion that will occur at events when people (including teams and probably some refs) haven’t travelled deep enough into the rabbit hole of “at the end of the match” statements to know that only rings on alliance goals are technically worth any points.

and the Q&A about this issue still remains unanswered, leaving it unknown if the gdc intends to keep or remove this technicality in the rules, and leaving it generally quite confusing to people that aren’t closely following forum discussions.

Please, can we get this addressed?

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Hopefully this is made explicit in the Q&A, but I like the way it is spelled out that only rings count in auton. Now alliances have to make the decision of going for neutral goals, scoring rings to try to win the auton bonus, or getting the auton win point. Going to be impossible to do all three early season and will continue to provide a challenge to the best teams in the world throughout the season.

I don’t have a problem with only rings counting, what I have a problem with is the extreme amount of manual digging you have to do in order to know that. If someone isn’t on the forums, I do not expect them to be able to deduce this, seeing as it took all of us on the forums over a month of manual investigating to realize this, your average student and even your average ref are probably not going to be aware of this.

Which is why a very clear and explicit statement needs to be made in the manual.

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to add on this (and a little off the current topic), I’d actually prefer them to to stick to the current rules where mogos don’t count, and rings on alliance goals are the only scoring method in auton. The reason being that it’s already a disadvantage to lose out on the majority of the neutral mogos, and if mogos counted in auton, it would take a difference of 7 rings on a post to make up for a lost mogo, which would give the alliance that steals more mogos yet another advantage. I don’t want this game to be like change up where whoever does better in auton is basically guaranteed a win.
And personally, I’d like an auton scored only with rings a lot more.

And, if they wanted, they could add an exception so that rings on a stolen neutral mogo would also count. This would make the auton skill ceiling a lot higher. I doubt there will actually be many auton ties. However, this would be complicated due to the rings needing to be on a scored mogo to count. It would have to be a special exception for auton.

overall I feel this would encourage more complex autons, where maybe a team would want to be the first the the tall mogo, as well as score 8+ rings on posts. Not that teams weren’t already planning on doing that, but if mogos did count in auton then teams would pay less attention to rings in general.

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Can I ask for more RING advice? The Match Loads when do they come into play? right after autonomous? or 1 minute into it? Also, do you have to put all the rings in before the end of the match without getting a penalty?

How about rephrasing your questions after you’ve had a chance to read the game manual about the match loads.

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