Scoring goals to be competitive at Nat/Worlds

Scoring goals to be competitive (rank at least in top third)

Do you think a team needs a lift to be competitive at National or Worlds? (I think no. I think teams that are consistently able to lift will be rare <10%).

If a team does not have a lift, what would be good marks to shoot for:

Driver load totals points (my guess is 120 Nationals / 140 Worlds)
Field shooting points (my guess is 80 / 120)
These assume your team is only doing one or the other at a time.

Does a team need to be able to do both driver loads and field scoring? (I think yes)

I’m curious as to what others think and it will be interesting to see how this changes over time.

-Brian

I think lifting will be crucial in nat/ worlds because everyone(except ramp bots) will b able to shoot. it seems, though, that either lifting devices are being kept extremely confidential, people simply haven’t figured out how to lift, or both

I think the lifting robot will be able to generate more consistent wins, thus becoming higher ranked seeds. If a team has a accurate and quick shooter, they’ll probably be competitive, so a team doesn’t necessarily need a lift to be competitive, though it would be beneficial to them.

I believe that a team does need to be able to do both if they want to be ranked higher in qualifications. However, in the eliminations, a low ranking team that can do driver loads with 100% accuracy, but field scoring with 50% accuracy would be more valuable than a driver load and field score 75% robot.

Teams should probably shoot for 100% of driver loads into goals, and conquering at least 4 out of the 8 stacks. Talking strategy with your alliance during the qualifications will be essential, in order to figure out who takes the driver loads and who takes the field scoring. Going for all field scores with both robots and then shooting the driver loads in the last 30 seconds or so may also be an option.

Um… I think there are 10 stacks on the field.

Besides that, I think that any robot that performs its task well, be it lifting or shooting or even defense, will be competitive.

I Think during the earlier part of the season lifting wouldn’t be necessary because most teams haven’t created a system to both lift and shoot ball consistently. But saying this at Nationals and Worlds it would be almost a necessity to have both High Elevation and to be able to Consistently score balls in the high goal. And these mechanisms to do this are very secretive right now. My team can do both of these and we are guarding this mechanism like it is a vault filled with money.

If I remember correctly, scoring isn’t the only way to win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FFI39fNjY

Playing defensive does have some benefits, but doesn’t seem to be as good of a strategy as compared to just scoring normally.

This is for a few reasons. First of all, playing defensively means that you adopt your strategy to your opponent’s (yes, it does sound like a good idea), but the problem here is that you will almost always be one step behind your opponents. If your opponent know how to play the game well, they can easily confuse you and mess up your strategy.

Secondly, this year there is no more wall bots, so instead of just sitting there and just obstructing opponent movement, you will have to move around and patrol the area. This will get hard once its 1 robot blocking 2 robots from the other alliance. Also, pushing battles will be involved, meaning you either will have to get a base with torque or a base will speed.

Having said that, having a base will torque means you will push well, but it means you will have to be slow. Personally I have brought a semi-defensive robot with a torque base to a competition before, and I can tell you it was really inefficient. The robots could easily outrun mine and my robot only did actual blocking and pushing when the robots were doing scoring (and I also failed to block an opponent robot from travelling back to do a elevation)

So, I do not really see the necessity for a pure-defensive robot this year (or even at all). Defensive strategies, I believe, will probably come at worlds when clearing of the field occurs and elevation will be the winning factor for the match.

I was implying that pure scoring isn’t going to win a match later in the game. defense and strategic movement give any alliance an advantage even if they can be outscored if they take a full offensive.

A transmission could solve that problem…

I was using 12 motors :stuck_out_tongue:

Rack and pinion actuated?

Or automatic CVT?

When you say play defensively are you referring to blocking the balls?? This would be hard to do without breaking rules wouldn’t it? No expansion and can’t touch a robot in the loading zone at base.

It’s the same reason that makes guarding effective in basketball. Making it difficult for the opponent by bullying them throughout the match gives the aggressive alliance a chance to take control of the match.

Strategy and defense are going to play a big role in this game, especially in the late season. I can think of a number of defensive robot designs and strategies that would have a huge impact on any high level match. The main challenge is adapting to counter-strategies. Any robot which changes the game must be prepared to play the changed game.

Speaking from experience from a tournament I had just yesterday, good robots will be able to counter aggressive defense. Knocking people that have balls so they cant score is easy to do if you have a strong base, but if the opponent has a braking system or traction wheels somewhere on them, it’ll be impossible to budge them while they’re scoring unless you’re designed purely for defensive play.

The harder part about this is that once the opponent grabs the balls, they can go back to their own tile and you cant do anything to contest it, not even block them, because most likely their shooter will shoot outside of an 18 inch high height, rendering any blockers useless.

The defense you would need to play would basically be to stop the opposing alliance from gathering any balls at all, which would be extremely difficult, seeing as balls are usually scattered all around the field.

Defensive play is only going to be viable against robots you know you can push, such as ones with no brake, or ones with holonomic drive, etc. Once a brake or strategy to not be pushed comes in, your entire defensive plan goes to ruins.

It would be smart to make a robot that is both offensive and defensive at the same time, such as one that can switch all motors towards a shooter and drive, or something along those lines. That way, you have a backup strategy if your defense cant make up for the scoring your opponent still makes.

But in basketball you can jump up and block the ball, in NBN, this is an illegal maneuver (expanding beyond 18’ not jumping lol). I can see however, defending against opponents who are in the middle of the field, given they don’t have a brake system of course. In the end a robot which is capable of defending in these rare instances of a robot being in the middle of the field is good, but not necessary to be competitive at nationals. The competitive robots will have the ability to lift and shoot effectively.

I agree, but defense will be necessary. A brake can only do so much, and there are plenty of ways to push robots that have brakes quickly and easily. In the final matches at worlds, defense always happens, and it may not need to be played until those final matches to increase the confusion of the opponent under pressure. Defensive strategies have won worlds three times in a row.

If a brake is being pushed “quickly and easily” then it’s not a very good brake and should be redesigned. However I agree with you, the brake is not some universal anti-defense device; it’s really only useful when the robot is already lined up to shoot. If the defending robot can constantly prevent the opponent from lining up, then they can neutralize the scoring.

The issue with constant-harassment-style defense has always been that, on an open field like this one, it leaves your ally and their ally in a 1v1, so it really only gives you an advantage if a) your ally is better than theirs, or b) you’re already ahead in points when you begin to play defense.