ok i know that VEX and FIRST had their bad split up but has any one noticed the similarity between clean sweep and lunacy the FRC 09 game. There are 3 ball types in both games, they both have very large scoring areas (true one had moving ones), they both have human participation in the game( the vex one is not as large as it may seem but if the HP forgets to put the large ball into play its going to hurt their alliance). the way a lot of teams are looking at this game are going to look very simaliar as well the FRC teams all had the same feed system into a large holding cell where they had a massive unloading at the end of the match , so it should be interesting to see how some of the vex teams will pick up the balls of different shapes if there are any other ways to do it.
If you look at the two games in that broad of a scope, you’ll find that many games across many robotics competitions are similar.
3 types of balls in each game - Well, in a more focused sense, FIRST only had 1 size/shape ball, but the different colors made the balls more valuable. In VRC, the balls are totally different sizes, which adds another obstacle to work around. And VRC has done multiple game piece sizes before (ie Elevation).
They both have human participation - eh…once again, FIRST’s human players are always involved in their games, and the extremely minute part that the coaches play on VRC are really not close to what role the human players played in FRC.
Large Scoring Area - If you look at scoring area / field area ratio, you’ll find the VEX competition does have a MUCH larger ratio.
But I do think you hit on one key fact is that the robot designs will be somewhat similar to the designs in FRC Lunacy. But I don’t think that intake mechanisms will be quite the same. We saw some along the same lines but the “scoop” is extremely popular and in Lunacy, the scoop was no where to be seen. But the scoring methods used in Lunacy are definitely worth testing 
I generally disagree with this statement. I do however agree that a human element is present in both games. HOWEVER: I was very angry that FIRST brought a humans sporting ability into an engineering competition when Dean Kamen particularly tells everyone, every year how FIRST is not like professional sports.
Keep in mind I still look up and greatly respect Dean Kamen, but still. It was a bit hypocritical. I am legally blind, this is why I don’t play basketball - I spend countless hours under high stress building robots. I put my heart and soul into this. I could not see all my hard work going down the tube because someone sank a lucky shot in the last fifteen seconds that changed the score.
Vex didn’t do this, all the humans do is hand off an element to the robot. It is still the robots job to deliver the object to the goal (essentially the robot must still make the shot).
This is my opinion, I think that Dean Kamen and Woody Flowers had more important things going on this last year. I think the president of FIRST (who I have personally met) has taken more charge. FRC needs to take the game more seriously. FIRST killed there FTC program the minute they sold it to Lego. Don’t even bother, I tried to use the FTC kit. It is absolute garbage. I felt like, as an engineer - someone had cut off both my arms and a foot. How can I think outside the box if I’m only given a box to work with!?!?
FRC is great, I wish FIRST the best, but even FRC - It costs so much to operate and the kids are less involved. Where a VEX robot (from my experience) can be built entirely by the kids at a much lower price. Our FRC team easially burned $36,000 in one year. Our 3rd place in the world - Vex team used a little over $2,000.
That means that 18 highly competitive Vex teams can be made from one FIRST FRC team. One FRC team is about 30-60 kids. 18 Vex teams, half full is 90 kids, completely full - 180 kids.
Per dollar - up to three times the bang for your buck as a school. Also, after investing that much into Vex, the parts are relatively reusable next year! That means that it will get cheaper over time to keep the program(s) running.
I’m just ranting now, I picked my side. I support FIRST but I build and compete with Vex. They take themselves more seriously, they are the future.
-Cody
Truly no offense, but I don’t think there is much of a similarity beyond the incentive to hold multiple balls. (And after playing a year of Lunacy, I sure hope they aren’t similar…)
I thought the problem with Lunacy was a lack of action, mostly resulting from the legalized pinning and the low friction playing surface. Thankfully Clean Sweep has neither one of these aspects :).
In Clean Sweep, robots are allowed to expand outside of their starting box, something FRC robots couldn’t do. More space = more diversity (= better game ;)).
Exactly why the games are essentially different. 
2003 FRC “Stack Attack” & Clean Sweep are very similar in terms of pushing all objects to one side of the field to win.
Teams really didn’t spend much time stacking but rather protecting the flow of objects.
Here is a video of my high school team FRC (624) team in 2003 !
That was a pretty violent game. I’ll toss in a video of 254 (in Silicon Valley Regional finals, I think): [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyiw0afjUY. Half the competitors get flipped over.
Good thinking, making that wall in Clean Sweep…](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyiw0afjUY. Half the competitors get flipped over.)