Unofficial: Answered: Tie for Second Place

VEX IQ Robotics Competition Discussion VIQC Ringmaster (2017-2018 Game)
1

@VEX_GDC : Hi Guys,

Your answer to the following seems incorrect to me:

http://www.vexiqforum.com/forum/viqc…r-second-place

You seem to have answered the question based upon last year’s rules. You are correct in stating that the tie for first goes to the highest ranked team if you go by the rules in the Crossover manual. However, if you use the rules in the Ringmaster manual you will see that the tie for first requires a playoff.

As well, we had a fourth place tie at our FL State Championship, which provided a World spot for fourth, and were told via phone call by our RECF rep to RECF that a tiebreaker should be played.

2

Perhaps I’m missing something, but Foster’s question was quite clearly about a tie for second place, not first (it’s even in the title and URL of the post). The Ringmaster manual doesn’t say anything about a playoff for anything other than first place (which you noted, but I believe incorrectly applied to Foster’s question).

3

At the FL Elementary State tournament, they made a call into the RECF and had the kids break a tie for fourth place. Fourth went to WORLDS, and fifth did not.

According to the manual, ties should only be broken for first place, and all other ties are resolved by qualification ranking. After two tiebreakers for first, then first also defaults back to the qualification ranking.

4

If you look at the logic used by the GDC in it’s answer to the question, they base it on what you would do for first place being done for second place as well. Which is why I state that what was done for first place ties has changed this year, so second place ties should change too. Here is their quote in their Official answer on the forum.

If there is a tie for second place, the tiebreaker should go to the higher seeded team. The final tiebreaker for first place is the higher seed, meaning that the lower seeded team must exceed the higher one in order to be declared the winner. This logic applies to the lower seeds as well. We will be sure to expand upon this in future game manuals!

This is untrue, the tiebreaker for first place this year is NOT the higher seed, it is a playoff as stated in the Ringmaster manual. So if, as they state, the logic should be applied to lower seeds then there should be playoffs for those ties.

Unless, of course, they are stating that the last bullet in the last portion of the tiebreaker rules for finals matches flows down through the rest of the alliances. However, if that were the case, then I cannot imagine why RECF instructed the FL tournament, via phone call, to have a tie breaker for fourth place with a World qualifying spot? I was the ref for that tie breaking match.

5

True, and a tiebreaker match was played

According to the manual, ties should only be broken for first place, and all other ties are resolved by qualification ranking.

Where does it say that? Are you inferring that from the last bullet of the finals matches tiebreaker rules?

6

It does say first place. Hopefully they will expand on this to all places in the future.

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7

I was asking about ties for second place. I read the GDC response as

– First Place Ties follow the rules in Ringmaster : Play another match and if they tie then the higher seed wins.
– Second Place Ties : Higher seed wins since that is the final decider in the first place ties. (New guidance)

I’m not sure of the timing, I think the GDC response came after the FL event. So the RECF person made the same call I did without GDC guidance.

I’m good with the above ruling.

Test cases #2 - 20 teams / 10 alliances in Finals (which was my case)
In match F9 - Alliance 2 (top seed) ties with Alliance 5 score (40 pt)
In match F10 - Alliance 1 (top seed) scores 50 pts

Scoring after F10 is
Alliance 1 - 50 pts
Alliance 2 - 40 pts
Alliance 5 - 40 pts

Alliance 1 becomes First place
Alliance 2 becomes 2nd Place - higher seed
Alliance 5 becomes 3rd Place - lower seed than Alliance 2
… remaining Alliances ripple down after 3rd place.

=======

Test cases #2 - 20 teams / 10 alliances in Finals (which was my case)
In match F9 - Alliance 2 (top seed) ties with Alliance 5 score
In match F10 - Alliance 1 (top seed) ties with Alliance 10 (came from the back) for first

Scoring after F10 is
Alliance 1 - 50 pts
Alliance 10 - 50 pts
Alliance 2 - 40 pts
Alliance 5 - 40 pts

Alliance 1 and 10 play one more match, Alliance 10 wins – they are Teamwork Champs
Alliance 1 becomes 2nd Place - lost the tiebreaker
Alliance 2 becomes 3rd Place - higher seed
Alliance 5 becomes 4th Place - lower seed than Alliance 2
… remaining Alliances ripple down after 4th place.

========

Test cases #2 - 20 teams / 10 alliances in Finals (which was my case)
In match F9 - Alliance 2 (top seed) ties with Alliance 5 score
In match F10 - Alliance 1 (top seed) ties with Alliance 10 (came from the back) for first

Scoring after F10 is
Alliance 1 - 50 pts
Alliance 10 - 50 pts
Alliance 2 - 40 pts
Alliance 5 - 40 pts

Alliance 1 and 10 play one more match, and they tie
Alliance 1 is the Champion, they have the higher seed
Alliance 10 becomes 2nd Place - lost the tiebreaker on seed
Alliance 2 becomes 3rd Place - higher seed
Alliance 5 becomes 4th Place - lower seed than Alliance 2
… remaining Alliances ripple down after 4th place.

8

I think your last one is incorrect.I don’t have the rulebook in front of me, but doesn’t it say there are up to 2 tiebreaker matches for first. So if they tied on the first they would play a second?

9

Yep, two tie breaker matches. So F10 in case two and case 3 should read

Alliance 1 and 10 play one more match, and they tie, play a second match and they tie.
Alliance 1 is the Champion, they have the higher seed
Alliance 10 becomes 2nd Place - lost the tiebreaker on seed
Alliance 2 becomes 3rd Place - higher seed
Alliance 5 becomes 4th Place - lower seed than Alliance 2
… remaining Alliances ripple down after 4th place.