# unofficial: Scoring objects being supported by two robots (with picture)

In Official Starstruck Q & A, @TheColdedge asked:

before people begin to comment.

The officials and teams evolved agreed to score the Stars on the red side, against the red side, and the cube against the blue side. This was handled professionally and the event was only a scrimmage so we scored it as i stated above and agreed to post it to the forum to get an official ruling. mostly because it is a scenario we had not yet seen.

Here’s my unofficial interpretation, but based on Ref training, reading the manual, and following the Q & A in the forum. This is how I would score it if I were pressed into service as a ref (which I have avoided.)

There are no scoring objects that are being simultaneously grasped by a robot from each alliance.

The three stars on the red alliance side are being supported by 2886A. If you take the view they are being held by 2886A, they score for blue in the near zone. If you take the view they would fall if 2886A were moved out of the way, they would score in the near zone for blue.

Either way, those three stars score near zone for blue.

The cube and one star are both being held by 6210X, which is completely in the near zone. Those objects score in the near zone for red.

The star on the ground touches the near zone on the blue alliance side, so it scores in the near zone for red.

It looks to me like the cube is fully supported by the blue robot. The clump of three stars is supported both by the red robot and the cube which is supported by a blue robot, so I wouldn’t score them. The two stars at the bottom are obviously both scored blue.

As Karthik would say, let’s take a look at the rules. Some things are bolded for emphasis:

Scored – A Scoring Object is Scored in a Zone if it meets one of the following criteria:

1. The Scoring Object is touching the Zone a. If a Scoring Object is touching multiple Zones it is Scored in the higher point value Zone 2. The Scoring Object is not touching any Zone and is Supported by a Robot and/or a Scoring Object, it is Scored in the Zone that Robot or Scoring Object is touching. a. If the Robot and/or Supporting Scoring Object in this situation is touching multiple Zones, the Supported Scoring Object is Scored in the highest point value Zone b. If a Scoring Object is Supported by a Hanging Robot the Scoring Object would be Scored in the Far Zone adjacent to the Hanging Bar that the Robot is Hanging from.
Note 1: If a Scoring Object is solely Supported by the Fence it is not Scored in any Zones. Note 2: If a Scoring Object is Supported by two opposing Robots it is not Scored in any Zones. Note 3: If a Scoring Object is touching two opposing Zones is not Scored in any Zone.

Let’s start with the easy ones. The two stars below the cube and the cube would all score on the blue side (for red). Two of the three stars above the cube would definitely not be scored at all since it is clear they are supported by both the robot on the red side and the robot/scoring objects held by the robot on the blue side.

The only scoring object that is in question is the 3rd star on the red side of the fence. It is not clear from the picture if that star is being supported by only the robot on the red side or by both robots/scoring objects held by both robots.

To determine this, it would be necessary to pull back the blue robot and and see if that star falls. If it does, it would also not score as it would mean it is supported by robots on both sides. If it does not fall, then it would be scored on the red side (for blue).

@kypyro In some of our competitions, the refs would see where the objects fall if the robots were removed, and score accordingly. Personally, from the angle, i feel like the cube would fall into blue’s near zone, because it basically being pushed against the fence instead of held up in the air, so if the robot were removed, it would fall into the blue nearzone. And the stars would fall into red’s near zone. Since most of the stars (if not all) are mostly on the red side of the fence, and if they were to fall, some might clip the fence and spin but it looks like they’ll all be in red’s nearzone.

The problem with ruling on where the stars would fall is this. If a robot was holding a scoring object over the fence at the end of the match, that object is scored where the robot is, not where the stars would fall if the robot was removed. In the case of being supported against the fence by a robot, I would expect the same ruling to be applied. For example, suppose a blue alliance robot reaches over the fence in such a way to be supporting a star on the red side of the fence. And if removing the robot causes the star to fall onto the red side of the fence, the star should be counted as if it were on the blue side of the fence since that is where the robot supporting it was. Pulling the robot away is only to determine support and if it is supporting the star, the star is scored where the supporting robot is located.
I hope this makes sense and if I am wrong please correct me.

I agree with you. Even after 11 months in, there are still some things about Starstruck scoring that I’m confused about. Last year with NBN, I felt that I had the rules down cold. But this year, not so much, because some of the rules do not make intuitive sense. Such as what Mentor 536 is pointing out above.

After looking at this picture several times, I would score it as follows.
From the bottom up:
The star touching the floor: Red near Zone - 1 point Red
The star just below the cube: Supported by blue alliance robot in Red Near Zone - 1 point Red
The cube: Supported by blue alliance robot in Red Near Zone - 2 points Red
The three stars above the cube: In my opinion, removing either robot would cause them to fall, therefore supported by both robots - 0 point for either side.

The argument of where would the objects fall is completely incorrect and made up. That is absolutely never the way to score anything in this game.

The correct way (like others have said) is to determine which robot(s) is/are supporting each scoring object, not touching or grasping. If both sides support it then it’s not scored. It’s important to realize that robots can support chains of scoring objects. I realize it’s hard to tell about a couple without pulling back the robots, but that’s the correct approach

how would you score the cube if the stars were not there? the cube where it is currently and just the red robot’s claws resting on it?

It depends on if it moves when you remove the red robot

okay, thats fair. thanks

This was an interesting discussion. I was one of the refs and am standing on the field in the right side of the picture. My reasoning was the same as yours, that the chain of support for the stars went through the cube to the blue robot so the stars should not be scored. Note, everyone was in agreement that the cube was fully supported by the blue robot. We had three refs there, so after some discussion and conferring with other event partners that were present the refs voted 2-1 to score the stars.

Great discussion, no arguing, just reasoning through how to handle it. It is a real pleasure to work with the students and mentors from some of Indiana’s best teams throughout the year. It was also nice having some of Kentucky’s best there for the day, they have some first class students, mentors, and robots.

@JayM I couldn’t agree more.

100% agree

It really does not matter at all if the cube was “fully” supported by the blue alliance robot. What matter is that the robot was not touching the floor tiles and was supported by the blue alliance robot. If the blue alliance robot was moved, the cube would fall. If the red alliance robot were moved, the cube would not fall. That is really all that matters with the cube.

It doesn’t matter if it would fall, it matters whether or not it would move

Couldn’t agree more.

Well… If you were to pull the robot with the stars first, the stars will fall, but not the cube. If you pull the robot with the cube first, both the cube as well as the stars will fall. Even though the stars are being held by the cube and the red team robot, I still wouldn’t count the stars to be held by the red teams’ robot, since the cube is being supported by the blue team robot. So… Since the cube is held by the blue team robot, might as well call it part of the robot. So since the stars are being held by both the blue team and the red teams’ robot, the stars are technically neutral, except the cube.
EDIT//: Just to make sure, it seems like one of the stars are being held in the claw of the red teams’ robot if you’d remove the other two stars near it.