Does anyone know why the semi-final match there at the start of the video was started with a person still on the field?
The implication is that the match was started on purpose…
To my understanding, (and this could be wrong) the announcer and referees checked to make sure everyone was ready. At T-~10 seconds, there was some last-minute checks and I believe a swap of the red alliance’s robots. The announcer was already started on the game-starting procedures, he counted down, and the match started.
That being said, the person on the field was NOT supposed to be there.
As to the reasoning behind why it started, I believe it was just the fact that everyone said they were ready, so the match was started. (Similar to rocket launches, they really start taking off several seconds earlier… Same thing here… The round really starts starting several seconds before they say “go”)
As a result, in accordance with G6, the red alliance was disqualified, receiving a score of 0 for that round.
Hello: This is Geraldine Bianco. One of the mentors for team 677.
Your account of the events of this match is inaccurate. Specifically that the red alliance made a last minute change to their position on the field.
The situation began when the red alliance called a time out. They were told that the match would begin as soon as the time out was over however they assumed as in every competition they have ever attended over the last 3 years that the time out would end and then the match would follow which would include the referee asking if the alliances are ready before the match begins. However as the red alliance was placing their robot at the end of the time out a referee began a count from 3….2 …1 and the match just started. No one heard anything that started at a 10 count nor was either team asked if they were ready at 10 seconds. As a result team 677 of the red alliance had not turned on their controllers and team 42a of the blue alliance had not even turned on their robot. It took everyone by surprise even the spectators who were all in shock along with the teams involved.
As a result the student in question after hearing the 3…2….1 tried to run off the field immediately. A very long argument began by the referees after the red alliance won the match. The red alliance captain was told to go and defend his alliance by one of the VEX officials who was there to help with the competition and when he tried to speak to one of the referees, the referee put his hand up to the red alliance captain’s face to stop him. After the referees were done arguing the head referee spoke to the red alliance captain and told him the red alliance was DQ’d and at the same time the blue alliance was being escorting over to the finals area. He did not even give the red alliance a chance to defend themselves before making a final decision.
A VEX official who will not be named stated these 4 things to me:
- I don’t like all of this arguing
- They could replay the match
- This is not what VEX is about
- I have never heard of a competition where a team was DQ’d 2 matches in a row.
The red alliance won both semi-final matches and was DQ’d for both. I agree that this is not what VEX is about. VEX is about providing a positive and constructive environment so that every student involved has the opportunity to be successful.
This is unfortunate - I had just saw the video clip and was curious about why the match started, but from what it sounds like there was a couple of failures here by the event staff.
The emcee of an event should always ensure that the referees, scoring / field control table, and both alliances are ready. Usually a thumbs up by all parties is a good indicator. But a match should never, ever start with a person on the field. These robots are smaller than FRC robots, so the risk of injury is lessened, but the risk is still there nonetheless. The emcee controls the flow of the event and should never start a match while anyone is still on the field, period.
I understand the nature of needing to complete matches on time and moving the event along at a decent pace, but it literally takes seconds to survey the field to make sure everyone is in order.
I wasn’t at the event myself, so I won’t comment any further until an event representative responds.
However, this brings up a good debate topic, possibly for another thread - if the emcee or referee fails ensure both alliances are truly ready to start the match and a member of the team is on the field, and the match begins anyway, should they be disqualified for being on the field? I am of the opinion that the match should probably be re-ran, but I’d be interested to hear what others have to say.
As the person who probably heard the largest number of descriptions of the events that lead up to this situation, I can say without fear of contradiction that human memory is an in imperfect thing; and I can say that everyone involved in running the event attempted to follow a by-the-book timeout process that delayed the start of the match by an amount that was neither significantly longer nor shorter than the 3 minutes specified in the rules, and that thereby favored neither alliance.
I personally intend to not become entangled in an online rehash of every detail of the match in the clip, so let’s not even go there; but with that said I will give this advice:
I can expect that the VRC World Championships will run on a tight schedule. Therefore at the beginning of (before) every elimination match, and at (before) the resumption of match start-up processes after a timeout, I urge every alliance to be sure that they have two robots on the field ready to go, and have all drivers and coaches in their alliance driver station.
Successfully accomplishing this will involve meticulously sticking to the timelines the field technical advisors and other tournament staff announce.
Successfully accomplishing this might mean that sometimes robots will be hurriedly placed on the field and will not be set up the way their autonomous software expects.
This advice is NOT directly solely at the teams that were at the VMAC, nor is it only motivated by what happened there. It is the result of a few years of observations that included several times when alliances dithered around and extended timeouts beyond the officially allotted period. I am confident that those incidents were NOT premeditated, but each time they occurred they were unfair to the alliance’s opponents.
Blake
PS: Ms Bianco is right about the quality of the machines that were in that DQ’ed Red Alliance. They are three tail-kickin robots that all were/are already headed to the Worlds. Definitely “scout” them and put them on your short lists.
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Avoid (don’t) speculate about any “facts” not in evidence.
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To find out what happens in various situations, read the rules, opinions are usually not required.
Blake
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The only hard evidence is the video clip, which shows a student hurrying off the field and the match beginning while the student is on the field. A match should never begin while people are still on the field, nothing speculative about it.
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I think G6 is the only rule that applies here, but correct me if I’m wrong:
Edit: G15 is relevant here as well:
If the match started while players are still on the field, is that a failure of official field personnel, the team members, or both?
Understood.
Just a specific comment about this one small thing, and most definitely NOT about the semifinal matches at Mid-Atlantic which I did not witness.
I’ve helped at dozens of VEX tournaments over the years, and I’ve seen just about everything you can imagine. Including a match where the referee verified that all the teams were ready, turned to the scorekeeper to make eye contact and start the field controls, and then turned around to find a student standing on the field trying to do something to their robot. Referees are (unfortunately) not omniscient, do not have 360-degree vision, and regularly deal with teenagers, a sub-species of human with an uncanny ability to find the tiniest gap in any procedure or set of rules. Scorekeepers regularly cannot see the field behind the wall of drivers, coaches, referees, photographers, judges, tournament directors and various other hangers-around, and cannot always check the field before clicking the GO button.
This is why there is a rule about being on the field or touching robots during a match. Of COURSE no one wants to start a match with someone on the field, but if it does happen, there are rules to deal with it. No one would argue that you should start a match with someone on the field, but you have to admit that with 15,000 or so matches a year, and a rookie team population that is currently at or above 50%, it is going to happen some time.
As a ref from this event, I’ll write what I remember from the event.
Between semi-finals 2-1 and 2-2 there was a 15 minutes break due to the event being ahead of schedule. Then at the end of the 15 minutes, 677 asked for a three minute time out. The refs granted the timeout with the condition that when the timeout hit zero seconds the game would start. The three other teams beside the team that was still on the field when the match started all had their bots ready to go when the refs gave a 30 second warning. The last team was still adjusting their robot when the time ran out and the match was started.
None of the refs wanted to see the semi-finals end in 2 DQ’s. However, the refs aren’t asked to make calls based on their feelings, our job is to enforce the rules that are set by VEX. In this case G6 is the rule that we had to enforce and standing on the field during a match we thought was intentional contact.
What’s the first song?
this is kinda off topic but its " Beat is coming" look that up
Yeah , thanks though
I absolutely agree 100%, mistakes happen - we are human after all. But Rule G15 exists exactly for this reason, the human element. If something goes wrong at some point, just replay the match. It’s fair to all the parties involved.
I don’t see how a blanket statement that replaying matches is fair to all parties involved can possibly be true. There will surely be cases when it is true; and there will just as surely be cases when it is not true. That is my firm belief.
I should have been more specific - in the event of an event staff failure or field failure, the match should be replayed. These aspects of the game are out of the operator’s control.
There are times when replaying a match would not be the correct call, specifically in cases where the match’s disruption is the fault of a team.