I am very, very surprised at the results of this thread. Most members of this forum have previously supported, and even protested for, BO3. BO3 is an objectively better system, which systematically results in better teams playing each other further on in the elimination rounds. BO3 is much more likely to result in the best team winning. BO3 or BO1. Pick a side.
I assume that DE is not an option for several reasons (including Tournament Manager, via, etc), but would VEX/REC be open to implementing DE in 2021 or beyond, assuming enough time to develop and demand from the community?
Thanks again for acknowledging the desires of the community, both competitors and spectators.
It would be awesome if it was possible for RECF to release the unedited footage from their more static cameras after the event is over. Similar to how they currently release official event photos on photoshelter. This along with possibly having the streams of the elimination brackets being live broadcast into Freedom Hall so that spectators can be directed to the hall in anticipation for finals. This is especially applicable if the seating present in each division was not increased by a good amount as normal division finals has, in the past, filled the stands to the point of people standing to the side of fields and watching.
While BO3 would be considered the more fair way of determining the world champion, i feel that worlds is more about experience. BO1 gives the spectators a thing to do and a way of watching all of the division champions. It also gives more people the experience of competing in the dome, which is something people have asked for in the past. If BO1 double elims was an option this would be my preferred choice, that is a more fair option and gives the most people the dome experience.
Trade offs. What is optimum in one situation can be suboptimal in another. This is a great exercise in stakeholder analysis and the trade off process. Sometimes the best solution is not what makes all stakeholders happy (because thatâs almost impossible) but is is finding a palatable option for all stakeholders. Iâm fascinated at this.
This is gonna sound really discord vex server of me but thatâs where Iâm from:
Bruh yâall really wilding if you think bo1 but at freedom hall is a more fair system to determine the champions of the world than bo3 is.
(Edit corrected âstâ to âatâ)
+1000000. Quals at worlds is about fun. Freedom Hall and Elims are about finding the best of the best. BO1 is terrible at that.
They donât owe you that.
I donât think you all realize how much planning goes into Worlds. Significant planning has already been done with the assumption that inter-division elims will be BO3 and played at the divisions. RECF likely thought youâd all be thrilled based on all the complaining about BO1. I certainly did.
Instead, you are all complaining that itâs not good enough that division winners get a big trophy and recognition as division winners and that they need to play in Freedom Hall to be ârewardedâ. My reaction is âthereâs no pleasing youâ, but Dan took an amazing position of saying, âOK, if you donât like our decisions, this is our constraint and you can choose between BO3 at the divisions or BO1 in Freedom Hallâ. Making that change now is really significant, and will likely invalidate a lot of work thatâs been done. Yet, Dan is willing to do it to try to make you happy.
And then, after giving everyone here that rather huge opportunity, seemingly all anyone can do is complain that double elimination isnât being considered. Do you all not see that at some point, RECF is probably just shaking their heads thinking âgood grief, anything we try to do, theyâre not happy with it and want something elseâ? From my point of view it seems like people will complain about literally any decision, so at that point thereâs really no value in getting your input. Dan is trying to do it anyway - I strongly recommend you thank him profusely and make a choice between A and B rather than just further complaining that C isnât an option.
You have a very valid point. I believe we did go out of hand with asking for more than what we are given, when we are here being given options by the RECF to make a decision that everyone is happy with. I agree. This kind of falls in line with âIf you give a dog food, they will always want more,â type of thing and I believe it was immature of us to be greedy and want more than the opportunities and choices that we are allocated.
Thank you for shining light on that, I believe we should just focus on the two choices we are provided and be grateful for having a say in this competition-changing and honorable decision.
As a competitor that got a chance to compete in the Round Robin I think that the best course of action would be inviting as many teams into the Dome as possible. I think the experience and feeling of being on the Floor in freedom hall competing is so valuable and such a cherishable memory. Along with this I think it is much more spectator friendly for Round Robin to the Best Of One matches. I would much rather get to watch all of the division winners play while in the stands of Freedom hall then only get to see one of the finals live, then have to go back and watch the others after worlds.
@Dave_Flowerday, please, donât get upset that students try to brainstorm and figure out the best solution.
Donât we want them to think beyond given constraints and sometimes take the risk of pulling off an all-nighter, rebuilding robot just before the competition, if they believe their new idea worth it?
I understand that, in contrast to that, running Worlds is a very serious grown up endeavor that takes a lot of careful planning on multiple levels, including logistics, software support, scheduling for enough time to have spectators directed to the hall and seated, etcâŚ
It is great that Dan is considering flexibility and asking for studentsâ feedback!
These polls are not scientifically rigorous, but I get impression that for new teams it is extremely important to make it to the Dome, and for many more experienced teams that have done it in the past, having some sort of redundancy to protect them from random events is just as important.
Double elimination system seems to offer a way to satisfy both requirements at the same time.
Now, if this all runs into inability of Tournament Manager to handle double elimination format then, since it is one of a kind event, could we show students how to improvise and simply get DRow to work a whiteboard with a dry erase marker, keeping track of the double elimination bracket scheduling and results?
This thread is becoming the poster child for âThis is why we canât have nice thingsâ
They added extra teams to Worlds to give more roboteers a chance to go to worlds.
People want to be on the big stage and Dan went way out of his way to say âOK, pick A or B and explain whyâ and instantly we are off-roading into âWhy not double eliminationsâ /sigh
Dan has been a huge change maker in VRC/VIQ. We have better support, better events, there is a Student Advisory Board. Heâs a regular poster (and as regular as in as much time as a multi million dollar company CEO can spend on a chat forum) He has bent over to help make things better.
And here you are, as Dave pointing out, giving a ton of grief to him.
Lets try again, make your choice and say why.
I liked @Illyana multi poll to see how itâs viewed by the major sub groups. Iâd like to see that with the two choices on it that Dan is offering.
But all in all Iâm pretty unhappy with the early responses here. Hoping that since itâs just crossing 5 PM here in Delmarva that others getting home will see this and trying to answer Danâs question.
It has a bigger impact that TM, it sets the tone for what people will want for events next year.
On the other hand if it means that @DRow will appear at the Delmarva Championship to do his whiteboard thing, Iâm all in 
This idea is getting much praise from @Barin
We are asking for too much. Either pick BO3 in divs, or BO1 in the dome. There is no 3rd choice.
I would prefer Division Finals to b Bo3, and that only the Division Champions go to Freedom Hall, where elimination Bracket would be played in Bo3 fashion to eliminate unlucky rounds for certain teams.
Possibly in the future make only 7 divisions, and include a wild card (similar to IQ) to the Finalists that have the highest combined opr for example, Iâm certain there can be other ways to determine wildcards but this is just an idea.
To those who are posting or voting from the perspective of spectators (especially on Illyanaâs poll), have you actually seriously tried to spectate matches in Freedom Hall?
The experience really is special. The music, the massive dark room, the fancy lighting, the large screens. But, from much of the arena, it is not possible to get a really good view of matches.
The average distance from spectators to their nearest screen, let alone the actual fields, is much, much greater in Freedom Hall than in the divisions. And the divisions have massive, highly visible projections anyway. The way I see it, Freedom Hall is a definitely special experience for spectators â but only the first time. And that experience will come from other events, such as the new game reveal, anyway.
So, in my opinion and based on my semi-objective analysis, spectating *the matches* would be a much better experience in the divisions.
If the special effects in Freedom Hall mean significantly more to others than to me, then it is understandable to prefer spectating in Freedom Hall. But these are just my two cents, and I can easily understand why teams might want a chance to play in Freedom Hall.
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But, in all seriousness, there are definitely ways to make it work without much time to do so.
Thereâs a lot less room for spectators in the divisions lol
The elimination bracket in Freedom Hall, if it includes all 8 division winners will NOT be BO3. And since there are going to be 8 Divisions in HS VRC, I donât see nor would I endorse a move backwards to 7 divisions. And wow, trying to choose a wild card in a fashion that would get a whole bunch of teams majorly upset that they werenât the wild-card would be an extraordinary accomplishment.
My personal choice is decide the Division winners in the divisions. Bring them all to Freedom Hall and have them play a typical 8 team tournament, BO1 until the Final and have that BO3. The argument that the best two alliances may actually face each other in the quarter-finals or the semi-finals is a valid one. But it still doesnât mean the best alliance wonât win the overall championship. Plus, it is also the case that on occasion the Division finalist might also be the 2nd best alliance in the World and just happened to be in the Division with the best alliance in the World. There is no easy way out of that. I would want to see the division winner rewarded by appearing in the Dome.
Right. The amount of technical AV work that it takes to get the view decent enough for everyone in Freedom Hall is A LOT.
After Sack Attack I stopped watching Round Robin.