So my question to you guys is what is this years game changer. last year the ball launcher was it and before that it was the high goal scorer was (at least in my eyes it was).
I would say the pivoting skyrise intake. So you could not have to drive anywhere and you could just swivel, pick up, raise lift, swivel, drop.
you know I disagree with you on the launcher part in Toss Up I believe that yes it was something that had a great impact but I think that being able to descore 3+ stashed buckyballs was more of an impact to the game itself though not as largely seen. my team at worlds was actually able to make a strategy that would make it difficult for us to lose since we could control the majority of the point. now I know this was not as widely seen in Toss up since to my knowledge there were only three robots at worlds that could do this, but I think if there were more the strategy going into the finals would have been quite a bit different.
I would have to agree. our alliance picked the 38th placed team in the second round because they could do that. we won the largest tourney in California because of them.
I would also have to say that as cheesy as it is, consistency was a game changer this year. last year and to the best of my knowledge all years before this one, if you missed it would only result in that point not being scored; but in this game, a miss could cause much wasted time trying to straighten a crooked cube. also dropped skirise sections cannot be picked up unless you can (I can)
If it wasn’t widely seen, how would it have had an impact? High hanging in less than 5 seconds was a game-changer, launching could be considered a game-changer, defensive strategies were a game-changer, but I don’t think that de-scoring Bucky Balls was one. If it had really been a “game-changer”, it would have been more popular and would likely have appeared more often in division finals at worlds. It had potential, but for it to truly change the game, it would have had to make teams that are expected to win lose, and those expected to lose win. To “change the game,” you have to do something that changes the strategies of many other teams.
In response to the comment on stationary robots building the skyrise in autonomous, I don’t think it’s the fact that they don’t have to move to build the skyrise, but that they actually build multiple sections of the skyrise in autonomous. This is what will make the difference at worlds–how many skyrise sections can be built in autonomous and/or how many cubes can be placed on it. Winning autonomous is key and quickly building and scoring on the skyrise is where most of the points are. After the skyrise is done, it’s mostly just about cleaning up the field. Whatever is done is autonomous is a headstart for the rest of the match.
While building the skyrise without moving the skyrise is extremely efficient, it may not be the most effective. A team at my school was able to build 3 skyrise sections in autonomous with a slower drive (due to a lack of available parts, it will be faster later) with a skyrise stacker that required the robot to move back and forth. Once the drive is faster and the programming is further devoloped, we think that more Skyrise sections can be scored. In addition, robots that don’t move to build the skyrise are more complicated, require MUCH greater stability and a HUGE amount of time spent tuning, and can have more moving parts bringing more ware-and-tare to the robot. Simplicity is key in any design–if it works just as well with a sturdier and simpler robot, why make it more elaborate?
In addition, I am averse to scissor-lifts, which are what I have seen on most robots that build the skyrise without moving. This might just be me, but I don’t think that scissor lifts are the optimal solution. There are more joints (more friction), sliding parts are required (a lot more friction), they require a high gear ratio making them slower (if using a compound gear ratio, more friction and complexity are added), they are heavy, and it can be difficult to reach the height of the full skyrise and still maintain stability. Obviously some teams are able to find solutions to some of these problems, but I think time would be better spent on a more efficient solution.
You know I disagree with you on the swivel for game-changing design, I think this year’s game changing design is going to be catapulting cubes onto the posts. This strategy of gameplay has been used quite commonly and to varying degrees of success in my region and nets you several advantages such as being able to cap the elusive 10th post behind the opponents’ starting tile and capping posts while opponents are in the process of lifting up, wasting their precious time.
We won the largest tournament in Southern Kanto by picking a team in 40th just because they could do that.
I think my team at worlds will be able to use this as a strategy, and although not widely seen, if other teams care about strategy they will be sure to pick us.
I cant believe no one has mentioned the most obvious game changer for Skyrise.
I would argue that cube intakes with capacity higher than 3 cubes could seriously impact the game this year. We have not seen very much of this and it was only recently that I saw a robot that could pick up four cubes and quickly release all of them on a post. Granted, this presents several design and strategy trade-offs, but it’s definitely a trait to look out for at Worlds. More specialized skyrise-building robots are becoming more ubiquitous, but I have not seen a lot of teams that can specialize in cubes well enough to be efficient at it. I feel like 4 and 5 cube bots can make a huge difference at Worlds if executed and planned correctly.
This is a very interesting concept. If you have any video of this, could you share it with us?
I doubt you’ll be able to find any, the teams that can do this are very secretive about their designs. This concept is extremely tough to perfect, most teams that use this need programs to adjust for goal height and distance and sometimes adjustable intake angles. It’s basically the scissor lift of intakes (takes a lot of time and work to perfect) but the plus side is you won’t need a lift.
Come on, guys. Can we keep this particular discussion a serious one please?
Hmm…I think I spot a troll. I find this very hard to believe. The odds of shooting a cube onto a post from any significant distance is near zero. It is even closer to zero if you want the cube to actually slide down the post and not just get stuck diagonally at the top of the post.
I believe these teams are very secretive about their designs is because they do not exist.
I do agree with an above post that says building the skyrise in autonomous will be a game changer. If you can build 4-5 skyrise sections and perhaps get a couple cubes on it, you are probably going to win. You will hardly have any work left to do in the 1:45 driver control period and will have extra time at the end of the match to do a few donuts.
There is already at least 1 team that builds 4 skyrise sections in autonomous.
This game is pretty straight forward (compared to Toss Up at least) so I don’t think there are too many hidden/surprising game changers. I agree with the stationary skyrise building though, and having a better than human full Skyrise building autonomous routine for driver control
And yeah we were joking, launching cubes would also be dangerous and possibly illegal.
I’m just curious if there has been much use of wallbot-type technology this year or any other kind of defensive strategies that work fairly well.
I don’t think we can judge what the game changer will be until later in the season
I’m guessing that you are referring to the 2223 robot whose team did a reveal on the forum. If you watch the Puerto Rico finals in which they competed, most teams rarely picked up more than 3 cubes, even though they had the capacity for 4. Holding more than 3 cubes seems like a trivial ability in the grand scheme of the game. The field is almost set up for 3 to picked up at a time: there’s 3 near each wall, the pyramid in the center has stacks of 1, 2 (pick both up and it’s 3), and 3, and if a robot starts with their preload, there are two more cubes immediately nearby at the beginning of a match. Another thing to consider is that lifts that can raise more than 3 cubes either require more motors, a shorter lift, or a lower gear ratio; you either sacrifice speed, motors, or height for that one extra cube that you will rarely pick up.
In my opinion, the game changer is specialized robots. I don’t think that the Worlds-winning alliance will be two “hybrid” robots that both do cubes and skyrises decently - I think it’ll be a phenomenal skyrise robot that can build 5 or 6 pieces in auton, paired up with a FAST cube scoring robot that has very limited skyrise capability so they can focus on just being amazing at cubes.
Alliance picking strategy/specialization is the most important factor in this game, in my opinion.
But then what would that skyrise robot do when it was done building the skyrise?
Remove the de-scorable cubes, fix stuck cubes, and perhaps defend?
For skyrise builders: Pivotal skyrise building and 20+ pts auton plus 2 cube intake is a very ideal combination.
For cubers: adroit/reliable 3-4 cube intake/scoring plus simple skyrise intake for winning qualification matches.
For All: Autonomous!!!
And both robots matter! Scoring 7-9 pts on the cube side is perhaps more difficult to program than scoring 20 pts on the skyrise side. Therefore, any one of them can be autonomous determiner.
Best strategy this year so far: specialization. It is nearly impossible to make a pivotal skyrise builder have 4 cube capacity. The game’s goal is so high that omni-functional robot like those in toss up is nearly impossible.
2223 and other 4 cube dumping teams generally have pneumatic assist for a bar lift. This means they need to use pneumatics for skyrise claw/intake dumper, and pneumatic lift assist. This means their 4 cube dumping may be very limited – they may only have air for lifting few loads of 4. But this is more than enough.
I suspect that at worlds, the highest matchup will be:
One skyrise builder knock off the 7 or 6 stage skyrise in very short amount of time, while the other cube robot goes out and lock in field goals. Then both robots go out and lock field goals. At the last moment, both robots come back with high capacity to fill tower quickly. Both alliances have full 60pts skyrises; the difference is among field goals and auton bonus.
I love strategy discussion threads.