Why losing autonomous might win you the game

I respectfully disagree. If you have scored 4 balls in auton you have those points and the bonus. (for clarification I do not mean the 4 preloads, that would be a waste, I would score 4 balls from the floor) Now, you took 4 balls away from your opponent by scoring them. Meanwhile all your opponent has done is hoarded 8 balls. Not scored them, or picked them up. Just pushed them to a corner. When driver control starts, you will go pick up four more and score them, while they are picking up and scoring their FIRST batch of balls. You are ahead in every way possible. You have more points in the goals, you have the autonomous bonus, and you have not given up more balls to the opponent. Remember, they have 8 in their corner. You have scored 4, and are picking up 4 more while they are picking up 4 of their 8 their hoarded.

I’m sure there are many other scenarios, but this was the scenario described initially in this conversation.

<SG13> Intentional strategies causing an opponent to violate a rule are not permitted, and will not result in a foul on the opposing alliance. Minor violations of this rule that do not affect the match will result in a warning. Egregious (match affecting) offenses will result in a Disqualification. Teams that receive multiple warnings may also receive a Disqualification at the head referee’s discretion.

<SG7> Robots may not enter the opposing Alliance’s Loading Zone at any time during the Match. Minor violations of this rule that do not affect the match will result in a warning. Egregious (match affecting) offenses will result in a Disqualification. Teams that receive multiple warnings may also receive a Disqualification at the head referee’s discretion.

This probably requires a Q&A, but I think that the strategy of pushing stacks into your loading zone is illegal, especially since in skyrise it was ruled you could not put you opponent’s cubes into your protected area. If I am incorrect please point it out.

You can strategise against imaginary opponents who play the game completely incorrectly, if you want. It won’t get you very far. Hoarded balls shouldn’t (and won’t) be shot until the rest of the field is clear, at which point they can overcome your autonomous advantage because they have a ball “ownership” advantage.

This isn’t a situation that falls under <SG13>. If this were to be illegal it would require a new rule, like it did for Skyrise. That’s a possibility, but I think the fact that pretty much this exact rule was left out and added later last season means that the GDC wouldn’t miss it again.

Better make sure the balls are in the LOADING ZONE and not HANGING ZONE, otherwise the balls are fare game for anyone during driver mode.

I say it’s better to score the 4 preloads since a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush,( or 20 pts in the goal) If you get another pile with a bonus ball then 45 pts. Now granted if your opponent did nothing but raise their alliance >12" then they will win 50-45. They are given 10 pts. However, as soon as driver mode starts, and you start with +45 pts and a 35 pt advantage because they have to lower their alliance and loose the 50 pts (this happened to us 2 years ago in Toss up. We would do autonomous hanging robot with beach ball. We’d win autonomous and got 10 points but then would loose them immediately when we started driver mode because we would have to lower the bot and so loose the 20 pts. Anyone who scored in the clear cylinders kept there points into driver mode. So if they lost autonomous 20-15, As soon as driver mode started they were up 15-10.

Score when you can, in other words, bots fail and they will be inaccurate more than you’d like to see. There were a lot of 1-0 autonomous wins at Worlds this year.

Don’t assume anything in these bot games. Lots of games lost because of autonomous loses. Any game score of <20 pt difference, could have gone to the loser.

shooting in autonomous instead of shooting in driver control will not positively affect your accuracy, and if anything it will negatively affect your accuracy. So as long as your robot has the speed to pick up and shoot 24 balls during driver control you will be better off shooting the balls you claimed during autonomous mode in driver control.

I would argue that auton is often more precise and accurate than driver control (not all of the time, but often). A good example is the skyrise towers. Many robots could build multiple sections very rapidly in auton, but then when driver control started the same robot would take twice as long to place each section in driver control. Good programming can be much more precise than a human.

Of course, all an opponent has to do is ram into your finely tuned autonomous with a push bot…

In this year’s FRC game there was a similar situation, but much farther excaberated. For those not following FRC, this year was a stacking game. Every tote in a stack was worth two points. The maximum score for a stack was 12 points… until you put a can on top of it, and then you could put a pool noodle into the can too. This triples the worth of your stack, and also adds some more points, raising the maximum value of the stack to 42 points. (stack of 6 with a can on top, and noodle in the can).

There were 11 of these game pieces on the field, 3 on each side, and 4 in the center. Teams were not allowed to cross over.

This sparked the “can battle.” Teams knew they would need the center cans to win, so they made ridiculous contraptions to grab them as quickly as possible. Just to show how ridiculous it got, a very good team made this thing at worlds.

Here’s a video showing all of the einstein can races. You can see that at the highest level this did in fact matter.

Great analogy right? This means the balls WILL be hoarded right? During qualifications, and even regional eliminations, center cans often went untouched, and when one team took the cans, they ended up oftentimes not scoring them and scoring poorly anyways.

The point is: Taking the balls isnt enough, you need to SCORE them for it to matter.

And honestly, if you expect teams to be able to shoot all of the driver loads, it should be faster to simply take the stacks and score them than to take them, drive them back, let them go, and then go take more. I can definitely see a high level team scoring the preloads and two of the stacks in auton. I don’t see a team hoarding more than three stacks in autonomous though.

Good play for teams that can’t score in autonomous, not a good play if you can.

It is very true that autonomous is typically faster than driver control, but I never saw a skyrise autonomous that was more accurate than driver control.

I saw quite a few personally. QCC2 comes to mind. Along with lots of high school teams I watched.

I also saw lots of driver control skyrise sections dropped on the floor by nervous student drivers (not accurate).

But if you can score one set and secure another you are still a step ahead, don’t forget you cannot control more than 4 balls at once.
There has been talk of winning auto with a lift, to me that is a waste as you only gain 10 points and then have to put your partner robot down to go score anything else.

All in all the 10 auton points are much less significant in this years game.

The best place to store your balls during autonomous is the high goal because they are woth more (because of the bonus) and the opposing alliance can’t get to them.

Also lifting is gonna be hard during auton because you can’t expand outside 18^3 intil the last 30".

We actually have a team at our school that only expands horizontally to lift robots. I have been trying to get him to reveal the mechanism… It’s simpler than you would think :slight_smile:

This whole discussion reminds me of a popular chess opening where you give the opponent a pawn for a better position (I think it’s called a gambit), it’s a little risky because you might not be able to use your positioning to give you a big enough advantage but it might be a very good idea when you are facing an enemy that is better than you however it’s not worth the risk if you’re facing someone who you are clearly better than.

Having balls resting in your loading zone, untouched by any concave robot surfaces, is not possession.

Right!

Thats my bad then, sorry. I was under the assumption that if the opposing team can’t get the balls then its hoarding, and I thought hoarding was possession. Sorry about that one.

[SG10] You can expand horizontally only in the hanging zone at any time. But height can only be changed in final 30 seconds.

Wait? So its legal to load balls that rolled into the Loading Zone like one of the Driver Preloads? Or am I understanding this thread wrong?