Clarification of Center Platform Defense Rules

**Nallen7704** · April 23, 2019, 5:50pm

Robot 1 is on the center platform and pushes against robot 2 on their alliance platform to defend is position, but robot 2 puts their arm under robot 1, lifts it up, and tips it off. Is what robot 2 did legal?

**callen** · February 23, 2019, 9:31pm

I’m pretty sure that is legal. Robot 1, in competing for the center platform has given up its protection from being tipped. Best to check the official Q&A, and if the answer isn’t there then ask there.

**Nallen7704** · February 23, 2019, 11:53pm

I am awaiting response on the Q&A. My main concern is more lifting the robot, causing it to flip, not necessarily the ‘flip.’ To go more in depth, robot 2 lifting the front end of robot 1 upwards allowing it to wobble and be pushed off much easier rather than pushed back and forth, relying on motor strength (which was the only way I thought was legal).

**TaranMayer** · February 23, 2019, 11:59pm

When fighting for the center platform, pretty much anything goes. You can’t intentionally break their electronics, but once you start going for the center platform, you can be pushed, shoved, flipped, tipped, skewered, etc.

**Foster** · February 24, 2019, 1:31am

Yes, all of the above. This happened at my event today. It was a pretty epic “King of the Hill” battle. But at the end, one robot got shoved off the top yellow platform. The referees and I had a discussion on how much was was pushing and if any was “lifting and tossing” and we decided that it was all part of the way the platform battles work. So, we ruled that the robot that got pushed off was part of the game.

The team here didn’t take it well. @Nallen7704 sorry that things that things didn’t work out well for you at your event. But as others have said, once you climb on the hill, other than destruction of robots, it’s pretty much all fair.

**Tarek_Shraibati** · March 6, 2019, 5:58pm

This is the judging forum. Please post this on the game forum.

**fantomexrobotics** · March 9, 2019, 8:23pm

you can use the arm as a protection for your robot but you cant purposefully flip another robot. some referees may call your robot out on it whereas others don’t mind. but other than flipping opponents, your robot can do pretty much anything to defend yourself on the center platform

**Foster** · March 10, 2019, 6:05pm

@Nallen7704 – Close matches at Delmarva Regional. We told teams at the event that if you are on the platform you are fair game EXCEPT you can’t reach into the robot.

@Tarek_Shraibati - roboteers don’t understand the difference between referee (wear a striped shirt) and judges. Maybe dress the judges in tie-dye? Maybe on the inspection form make them sign that they understand the difference between judge and referee? Maybe look at the forum more than once every two weeks? Maybe help move conversations to the right fourm but get an answer to their question?

Confusion between Referee and Judge is a common problem. I’d suggest Analyst. Referee decide matches, Analysts look at the details of your robot. We are not judging you, but after analysis you are the best …

**Tarek_Shraibati** · March 10, 2019, 10:26pm

Hi all,

As noted, this is the official judging Q & A thread. It is for teams to ask questions about the judging process which is used to pick award winners. It is not to address game rules. Game rules are, as has been noted, are overseen by referees who wear black and white stripped shirts at most events. For actual rulings on game related issues please go to the official game Q and A. Comments regarding game rules on this channel are the opinion of the person writing the post and are not official rulings of the game design committee. You will find the official Turning Point Q & A for game rules here:
https://www.vexforum.com/c/vrc-discussion/vrc-turning-point-18-19

**technik3k** · March 11, 2019, 5:45pm

@Tarek_Shraibati, you cannot really blame students for not being aware of the new Official Q & A location on the robotevents.com site. They are doing their best posting it in the Official Judging category.

Since the Q&A were moved there was a sticky post on top of the forums with the URL, but it has gone since the forum software upgraded.

@lacsap used to have a link to https://www.robotevents.com/VRC/2018-2019/QA in his signature, but the signatures are gone too.

Hosting Official Game Q&A on this forum, like it was done in previous seasons, was working great and avoided any confusion and knowledge base fragmentation. Please, find a way to re-integrate it back into vexforum.com for the next season.

**Tarek_Shraibati** · March 11, 2019, 6:00pm

Thanks for the post. I am in full agreement with you. I was simply trying to explain that posts on this thread related to Game rules are not going to be answered. I am contacting the GDC to ask them to make the link more clear for rules.

**Nerdom** · March 12, 2019, 5:20pm

I think intentional tipping (specifically trying with a “flipper” or something ) is still illegal

**callen** · March 13, 2019, 5:07am

Well, the rulebook seems to disagree with you nearly explicitly (my emphasis):

Note that this says even causing incidental damage while tipping a robot contacting or engaging with the Center Platform is legal. And if no damage is done, that would be even less an issue, right? But you cannot intentionally try to damage their robot.

**rpm** · March 13, 2019, 7:37pm

but the following sentence says (emphasis mine):

Intentional damage or dangerous mechanisms may still be considered a violation of , , or at the Head Referee’s discretion.

which leads to:

The following types of mechanisms and components are NOT allowed:
a. Those that could potentially damage playing field components.
b. Those that could potentially damage other competing robots.
c. Those that pose an unnecessary risk of entanglement.

So a head ref could rule (b) for a lift if its sole purpose is to tip a robot or © if using a hook to pull a robot. I’m pretty sure a hook should be consider illegal as it poses an necessary risk to electronics and wiring. I could see a lift going either way.

**Barin** · March 13, 2019, 9:39pm

I expect most referees, including myself, would err on the side of this being illegal and disqualification-worthy.

**TeamTX** · March 13, 2019, 10:11pm

Interestingly, the Q&A “answered” (tongue in cheek, as it was basically a non-answer) by pretty much saying the referee could decide based on context by asking various questions.
Q&A re this

So - as a referee - what if the lifting device was primarily for caps but was also used to lift and tip a center-parked robot? What sort of circumstances would that be allowed in (in your view)? (Understanding that, as you’ve stated, you would be more prone to erring on the side of illegal.)

Cap flipping arm used to push and shove but gets under and accidentally tilts, robot tilted moves & falls off - presumably ok?
Same as above but deliberately put under and tilted - except robot tilted moves itself and tilts over (could have avoided by not moving)?
Tilted but only a few inches and other circumstances caused flip over? Does it matter if they were TRYING to tilt all the way and couldn’t? If they were just trying to lift a tiny bit?

What relevant part of the situation would matter the most to you? How high they were lifted? If the lifter shoved vs the lifted moved wrong? If they were trying to lift a little vs tip? Other?

Obviously, it’s all hypothetical and “it is difficult to provide a blanket ruling on a snapshot description of a hypothetical mechanism” - but we’re allowed to play in hypotheticals here!

**Barin** · March 13, 2019, 10:54pm

After our state championship, I really didn’t expect to be making any more referee calls this season… But anyway…

Yes, probably okay.

My decision would depend mostly on the (as apparent) division of responsibility for the fall between the offending robot and the formerly parked robot/other circumstances.

One factor I would almost certainly use in determining this division of responsibility would be, as mentioned in the Q&A you linked, whether the offending mechanism seems, at least to some degree, specially engineered for tipping robots and/or seriously overbuilt for merely flipping caps.

Too hypothetical for me. I’m abstaining from answering this beyond what I said above.

**TeamTX** · March 13, 2019, 11:05pm

Lol! 1 more big one left for us - just absorbing as much information to prepare the team as I can

Fair enough. Thanks for your insights!

**536Mentor** · March 14, 2019, 3:53pm

All good points, however I do disagree with the last one. I applaud the move of the official Q&A out of this forum. It became very difficult to continue to deal with questions that could have been merely been answered by reading the Game Manual or reading previous answers. I like the official Q&A being limited to a few responsible people from an organization or team. It makes the questions better when they are filtered by someone responsible.