Divisions at VEX Worlds

To pre-empt @Foster I’m making this into its own thread because I feel it is sufficiently different from the existing Worlds thread.


I am curious as to how divisions at Worlds this year will work. I suspect it just hasn’t been updated from 2019, but the livestream site currently lists this.

This is different than was planned for TT worlds, with its increase in teams to 8 divisions.

With the further increase in teams this year, many of us had speculated an increase to 10 divisions.

Additionally, I am curious if divisions will be decided the normal way by alternating down the teams list, or if something like last year’s skill-based divisions will be used.

@DanMantz, I would be grateful if you could answer the following questions, the answers to I don’t yet see listed on the World’s website:

  1. How many divisions will VRC HS have?
  2. How many divisions will VRC MS have?
  3. How many divisions will VEXU have?
  4. How many divisions will VIQC ES have?
  5. How many divisions will VIQC MS have?
  6. How will divisions be decided, and when will they be finalized?
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Oh @Sylvie you sweet summer child, you just keep doing you.

Nothing like smacking Dan’s fingers 10 days ago and now asking for favors on the Worlds list. We are still OVER a month away from the first in person Worlds event. Why not cut RECF some slack on all the push to get things out there. The last regional / state finals were two weeks ago. They are still sending invites out and trying to get a balance on all the teams.

So let me ask, what difference does how many divisions make to you? One Monster division with 26 fields? Twenty six divisions with one field?

Discussion point: Given a range of teams what is the optimum number of divisions and fields to play the matches?

Finally you missed the JROTC National Championship that is held at the same time as VRC-MS and VEXU.

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I am simply curious, and it would be very helpful for the div predictions bot to know how many divs there will be.

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And how long does it take the TILDE ( Tracking InterLocked Division Estimator) to predict the estimates of the Division results? Does it take so long to run that you need that number this far ahead?

And what is TILDE going to use for data if the divisions are not populated? Or is that the next set of demands to Dan to populate the divisions?

Is TILDE hard coded with a number of divisions that will cause it to be re-coded if the number of divisions change?

How does TILDE then merge the results of each division into the sets of finals?

Finally what is the overall accuracy of TILDE. Can you just feed it the team list, do a series of random placements to a random number of divisions and using a reverse Monte Carlo simulation of who the eventual division winners will be and who the final winner would be?

Because that would be pretty exciting to take the top 2000 teams from the ranking lists, run the multidimensional Markov chains simulation and find out that @Meng’s teams from Singapore would have been the winner?

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Don’t tempt me…I might just

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Cool, and let the arguments begin “TILDE says we should be in the finals, why are we ranked 102?” With 35 days to go you could almost run all teams with and against all teams creating all possible alliances.

Homie what?

The div prediction sheet already exists…

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As Yogi Berra was fond of saying, “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future!”

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@Mentor_355v my favorite Yogi Berra: “It’s like déjà vu all over again.”

Well if it’s done, why are you asking how many divisions? Just have book with one division, another with two, then three, etc. I’m sure the same macro you used to build the current sheets can manage generating them.

So still not seeing the need for Dan to drop everything and give you a number.

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he doesn’t need to but it would be a little bit beneficial to all teams. Plus, if it were to be 10 divisions as some people have been saying, then I would also wonder how they’re going to carry out the overall finals (since playing a bracket with 10 alliances is very abnormal).

i personally wouldn’t have cared about the number of divs if there weren’t conflicting answers to this question from different sources

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Off topic but… bring back round robin pls.

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Discussion topic: Why is this beneficial to all teams? How will all teams use the data? How does knowing what division a team is in change the possible outcome of their worlds experience?

Discussion topic: Why is 10 divisions unusual in the year 2022 when for the last 25 months nothing has been usual. What would be a good number of divisions be to get back to usual.

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Discussion topic: Why bring back round robin? Why is rock-paper-scissors-lizzard-Spock not the preferred method of adjudication?

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Eh, while Round Robin is “better” in that it in theory produces a final match between the best and the second best alliance playing, it takes forever as you start having more teams. A 10 division round robin would require, I believe, something like 45 matches for every alliance to play every other alliance.

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Nice big bang theory reference.
I feel like round robin is the most fair way to see who deserves the tile of “world champion.” It’s a lot more challenging than an alliance playing through just two division champions. If i need to go into more detail I will.

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I would just sit tight until the April 5th update, I imagine we’ll hear more about the number of divisions then.

8 divisions work nicely for a simple bracket (which is probably the plan), but 10 divisions would result in a less conventional playoff style. No way it’s a round robin with 10 alliances as that would result in 45 matches…

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10 divisions could be two each of STEAM, and Science 1 and 2 (etc.) play off before the round robin.

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I LOVE THIS IDEA
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Edit: Their playoff would be best of 3?

Yes, but what if by chance the best alliance and the second best alliance that made it out of division happen to play each other in that playoff? Then it’s going to be 1st best versus 3rd best as the final match. (Assuming the better team wins every time, obviously)

Personally I’m in favor of double elimination because it also produces, in theory, a final match between the first and second best team, but it’s been made clear in the past that’s never going to happen because it’s too complicated for people to follow.

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Given 800 teams, what is the best structure for the event to

  1. fit into 2.5 days (assume 20 hours)
  2. Maximize the number of “Plays” for the $1200
  3. Get to the true Worlds Champion.
  4. Finite pool of volunteers and fields

Your structure should address divisions (if needed), pre-seeding from Worlds rankings, fields, finals (BO3, BO5, etc.)

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