Re-Visiting BO1 and BO3

A word in favor of Bo1: At our fall competition, we were completely done with the competition by 2 pm, and done with qualification matches and alliance selection before lunch. Admittedly it was a smaller competition, but our upcoming tournament (35 teams) is looking to follow a similar schedule, and will probably be an hour to an hour and a half shorter than what it used to be. Does that mean BO1 is the best in every situation? No. But it really does streamline the competition process

An idea I’ve seen floated around (taken inspiration from Vex IQ) is to use the extra time to have a dedicated hour or so where skills will be open on all fields in order to allow teams to get in a lot of extra skills runs (especially useful in a region like mine, where there are a lot of double qualifications), and it can help to counteract the removal of skills-only events.

As a 2nd year vex competitor I prefer Bo3. It adds a more competitive sense to the competitions and allows teams especially the finals teams to have a fair fight. I’m not blaming anything on Bo1 but I recently lost a meet in the finals after tieing finals match 1 16:16 and then losing finals match 2 16:17. I feel like Bo1 makes the eliminations quick and meaningless. With Bo3 the excitement level was high and it forced drivers to be able to drive under extreme stress and pressure in those 1-1 matches. I am however a fan of the 2 team alliances. the extra third was pretty useless most times.

Hi! I’m a coach with 22 IQ teams and 3 VRC.

I also hosted 3 IQ events and 2 VRC events this year and I typically lend a hand at states as well.

I’m a big fan of the two team alliances.

For small competitions BO1 makes sense. At my last competition, we did 27 qualification matches. With BO3 that could make eliminations almost as long as the qualifications. I do like BO3 for the finals, though. Everybody’s already there, might as well play a little.

For WORLDS, I’d go BO3 all the way. Manage the fields however you need to, time it out how you need to, but they can make it happen. If they did two field sets in each division they could do 12 matches with BO3. (I also do realize that’s a different level of insanity that many are not ready to accept.)

As a competitor that has been in VEX since Toss Up (currently our 6th year), I firmly believe that BO3 is far better than BO1. There are many reasons for this. I would first like to address the issue of consistency. People claim that BO1 emphasizes consistency and that the more consistent and better robot typically wins in BO1. This claim is quite the opposite of what is done in industry, however. If you are testing a product, do you test it once for a few minutes and make your decision based on that? If it works for 5 minutes, it’s good to go. If it doesn’t it’s not. Is that how you test products? No. Testing has to be much more in depth than that. Matches are similar to that. So, BO3 undoubtedly promotes consistency more than BO1. If you can win two matches in a row, you’re definitely better. Beating a team once doesn’t show that you’re better.

Next, BO1 certainly does speed up tournaments. However, what is the value of a tournament in which bad teams win? Even though the purpose of VEX is not to have the best robots win, if the best team in a state fails to make it to States because a piece of chain snapped that the team has never had a problem with before, or the team’s cortex decided to disconnect, or the V5 Screen went completely blank and stopped working, what is the point of that kind of competition? I would much rather spend an extra 2 hours at a tournament to increase the chance of the best team winning than go home early.

Some people are suggesting that BO1 can be used at local tournaments, but States and beyond should be BO3. This I can agree with. Local tournaments are forgiving by nature because if you get unlucky in one tournament, you can go to another and make up for that. At states, nationals, and worlds, however, there is nothing you can do about it.

I’m a 5th year competitor and I agree with much of what is being said here. I think bo1 for state qualifiers is fine, and I will admit I’ve come to prefer it. I also agree that using bo1 for world qualifiers and worlds itself is ill advised. These competitions are much higher stakes and I think it’s only fair for the teams to have bo3 eliminations personally. I think RECF could make bo3 a signature of a premiere event, one that’s full of strong teams and a good chance to give it all you got. (ie states, signature events, us open and worlds) It’s also a blanket of security for some of the weird issues with both V5 and 393. I don’t remember the exact post, but there was one talking about making states more of an experience, kind of like how worlds is. Having the exclusive bo3 eliminations would help facilitate this feeling.
Personally, I feel like this is probably the best compromise I have heard, and I think it has a good chance of placating both parties.

Honestly, I can never agree with RECF’s stand or justification about “Worlds is not about finding the best team or robot”.

And I know there is a group that supported it and are saying that finding the best team or robot has never been listed in RECF’s mission statement, etc. So there you go - just have fun and learn!

But if you look at NBA or FIFA websites, I don’t think they listed it out explicitly that they are looking for the best basketball or soccer team as well.
But try telling the FIFA that the World Cup is not about finding the best soccer team… or try telling NBA that their champion is not the best.

https://careers.nba.com/about-us/
https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/who-we-are/

Don’t get me wrong - obviously we want the students to learn and have fun.
But if it is just purely about learning and have fun, then I would suggest that they stick to classroom lessons.

Competitions are for those that want to prove/show that they are the best (and yes, learn and have fun along the way as well).
I just find it difficult to reconcile with this idea of having a competition that is not about identifying the best among the competitors. RECF just invalidate (or devalued) all the winners of the competition.

+1000
I don’t understand why it would be called a “competition” if it wasn’t about finding a champion.

Along with many others in this thread, I believe that Bo1 is great for local comps and makes elims run smoother then before. I however really hope that they consider allowing state, national, provincial, and world level events to have Bo3 at some point in the eliminations.

BO1 has been a good update. Here’s a few reason that I’ve

  • Finals are more fun to watch, it is less of a slog through quarter finals (High vs Low seeds).
  • More teams are able to participate in finals with BO1. Even though they removed the 3rd team, expanding the # of alliances in the finals bracket was a good decision.
  • We should never add 3 team alliances back. Never.
  • BO1 is more time efficient.
  • The top ranked teams in qualifications are still winning the finals majority of the time.
  • Upsets happened in both systems, it’s been a wash.

BO1 kinda sucks not gonna lie. The fact that one match determines your whole running in the tournament makes things so nerve-racking. Yes, it’s exciting, but when you’ve gone undefeated the whole tournament and have a rubber band break that leads you to lose is sad. This has happened to us twice, and our team as a whole struggles to adapt to the rules.

I’m a 1st year competitor. I’m the driver for 42700B and I drove in finals at the Hawaii State VRC Championships on the 12th. Here most tournament finals are Bo3. In my opinion Bo3 is the superior format, at least for finals matches. In most cases the most capable alliance comes out on top no matter what. Bo1 often means that uncontrollable failures are more devastating, leaving competitors feeling cheated.

I’m a 3rd year competitor who lost in the Quarterfinals at State last season, only to win an Online Challenge to move on to Worlds. Although I didn’t go on to the elimination round, I was greeted to this in the very first matchup in the Math bracket.

The match was just 20 points apart, but I believe that the red alliance could have adapted to their opponents’ autonomous functions had they had Bo3. Since then, I have used that as an example of why Bo3 is a better system.

I appreciate events ending much sooner at the local level, but especially in SoCal State competitions, where even Finalists qualify for Worlds, I would have wanted at least a Bo3 for the semifinals, just to allow a chance to adapt to qualify.

Honestly, I would be fine doing Semi/Finals Bo3 in Worlds. That should only add 6 matches, or about 20 minutes at most, and would award consistency going into the Round Robin.

This has been a really great discussion so far and I just want to clarify some factual things before we continue.

A bo1 bracket with 16 alliances requires 15 matches. A bo3 bracket with 8 alliances requires 14-21 matches. Bo1 might save a few minutes, but it certainly isn’t making competitions end 2 hours earlier. Elims don’t even take 2 hours. :slight_smile:

And again, please remember to tell us what your role in Vex is! Especially if you’re an adult mentor or EP, it’d be awesome to get your voice in this (mostly competitor dominated) conversation. Thanks everyone!

I am 5th year mentor and I think switching to BO1 was one of the worst mistakes that RECF has made.

If they wanted to remove an incentive for the teams to intentionally lose matches (to be the 3rd pick) they could have computer randomly select the 3rd pick, with alliances having only two opportunities to decline the selection. That would inject an element of luck and randomness in the much more fair, controllable, and uniform way than the BO1 does,

From the spectator point of view there is no pleasure watching 16th alliance being steamrolled by the 1st. And I don’t think both alliances are happy either, because 16th knows that there is a high chance that they will be swiftly defeated and 1st dreads to lose this early in BO1 eliminations due to a whitescreen or disconnect.

However, we would enjoy seeing multiple BO3 matches in the top of the bracket and 3rd pick strategies always add an element of the intrigue (and make alliance captains even better strategists).

I think an opportunity for the (mostly beginner) 3rd pick teams to be the part of the top bracket play experience and sometimes qualify beyond their wildest expectations was one of the best aspects of the VRC. The decision to do away with the 3rd pick removes a lot of educational and inspirational opportunities from the game.

One of the most memorable moments from the local tournament a few years back was a Final-1 when 3 top seeded robots become disabled (overheated or disconnected) and meccanum push bot won the match. That was the first time in the season that #1 seed lost!

Of course, #1 alliance easily won Finals 2 and 3, but that was expected. Everybody felt relaxed and had a great day at the competition.

On the other hand, BO1 is a high stress environment where you could be out after one mistake and months of the hard work and careful preparation could be negated by an unlucky equipment failure at any moment. If RECF thinks this will attract more rationally minded people (including girls) to the VRC, they must be getting their input data from an alternative reality.

If the true goal of the VRC program is to promote STEM education, then competition must be structured in a gentler way, where you have a plenty of second chances that will isolate you from the random equipment failures, that few students understand, and none have any control over.

To anyone who will tell me that BO1 prepares kids for the real life, where in many cases you have no second chances, I will reply that you misunderstand the process of education.

You would never call it a good education, giving six graders keys to the real cars and telling them that if they could learn how to drive in the next three hours all by themselves, they will get the license, and if they don’t - then the next opportunity to get the license will be in ten years. That sounds just crazy! Chances are they will crash the car, which would leave them with physical and emotional scars for rest of their lives. In the best case scenario a rational kid will call you a lunatic and walk away without taking the keys.

That example is an exaggeration, but it illustrates what good educational process should not have: high stress, high stakes, limited time, lack of guidance, high physical or emotional risks, no second chances.

The best educational process needs to have just the opposite: low stress environment, positive motivation, plenty of access to reference materials and adult guidance, structured age-appropriate course material with enough time to absorb it, and gradual shift to more independent work as kids grow. Finally, there should be lots of opportunities to test student’s knowledge, without the pressure or risk of ruining their final grade, even if they make a single mistake in any of those tests.

We want to give kids more chances to succeed, not more chances to fail!

Unfortunately, VRC has:

High stress BO1 environment with random equipment failures.
Insane pressure to make it to the States and then to the Worlds.
Lack of the structured course material relevant to the current season.
Lack of easily searchable knowledge repository open to all contributors.
Very limited build time and mentor help for the majority of school based programs.

At this point I could imagine somebody will tell me that VRC is about kids learning independently and point to a few exceptionally good teams. To which I will reply that, first of all, behind majority of those teams are well structured programs with dedicated mentors, and for any team that still made it in spite of strong headwinds, there were five that got discouraged or disappointed and dropped out along the way.

Sometimes it looks to me as if on the first day of school you hand out each student an apple and then, three weeks later, you give an “A” in physics only to those who were able to rediscover Newton’s Law of Gravity all by themselves. Every once in a while you may find another Newton but, guess what, most of the time they will simply eat those apples, and there are plenty of smart kids among them who could do very well in physics if you properly teach it to them.

Where you see the triumph of the perseverance of the few select teams that became champions, I also see a lot of missed educational opportunities for both the champions and the rest of the kids.

The reason I posted this long aside in the BO1 vs BO3 thread, is that I see this change as the step in the wrong direction.

I think that, instead of fixing structural deficiencies of the VRC program, this change actually makes them worse with the results that contradict goals and objectives stated by RECF such as encouraging quality STEM education among wide populations of students.

I’m a competitor and have been doing Vex for three years (since Starstruck). I entirely understand why EPs would prefer BO1, but from a competitor’s perspective it has been a change who’s negatives far outweigh the positives. I have personally experienced robots that should have won tournaments being eliminated due to faults that are mostly or entirely out of their control. At our first tournament of the season, our robot has major issues. We had received a part shipment later than expected (NOT due to fault in Vex, but rather our school’s PO system) and had to rush to build the majority of our lift and cap manipulator two days before the competition. Unfortunately, this meant that we were unable to properly resolve certain problems in our design. On the other hand, another team from our region (I won’t name them because I don’t have explicit permission) had designed a robot that performed extremely well and very obviously was one of the best teams there (likely THE best). We had badly lost to them in qualifiers and expected to lose in elims as well. However, when we went against them in quarterfinals, their partner’s chain had broken due to some heavy defense played by our partner. Because of this, the match ended up basically being a 1v2, and we narrowly won. While I would say that the match itself was fair and everything that happened was entirely within the bounds of the manual, they were clearly the better team and their loss was entirely due to bad luck. The chain had not been especially exposed and likely would never have broken again, but this unlucky break meant that they were unable to progress past quarterfinals and thus lost the tournament. I have watched similar things happen to other teams at multiple different tournaments. I also personally know some teams who have lost tournaments that they should have won due to undeserved disqualifications (while this is primarily an issue with the specific referees who made the calls, the consequences would have at least been softened in BO3).

All this is to say that BO1 is an unfair system that leads to inferior teams winning tournaments a significant amount of times. Of course this is nothing new; we as competitors we have been saying it since BO1 was first introduced. We can only hope that the empirical evidence that we now have may help sway the RECF, and maybe we can make some sort of compromise before Worlds, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

That’s a false equivalency. RECF recommends 12 alliances for most competitions with 24-40 teams (the size of most local competitions), which is resolved in just 11 matches (4R16, 4QF, 2SF, 1F) and takes about 45 minutes. Bo3 takes 14-24 matches and about an hour and a half. At our spring event, as a direct result of the time saved from Bo1, we’re allocating 45 minutes just for skills runs in the morning.

Whether it’s worth it is certainly something to debate, but Bo1 will save a local event a significant amount of time.

I’m a Second year competitor and I truly think that bo1 is a horrible idea, The only way that Bo1 would ever work is if all Vex Electronics worked perfectly. This is not the case from VexNet keys to White screen, and everything in between, a lot of good teams could lose because of an electronics issue that had nothing to do with them and was entirely vex’s fault.
I get that people want to speed up the tournaments with Bo1, but this could be done with more efficient qualifying matches, and by have a few less teams in the tournament, because out of a 24 team event, 19 and 20 verses 1 and 2 is really not needed.
I do however love the two team alliance, so that only the best teams make it, and the 17 seed don’t.

I was solidly on the fence with regards to Bo1 when the season started. I have since hosted two VRC events and I have come down on the side of Bo1.

I’ve personally never seen a tournament run with 16 alliances, we usually run 12 or 8 depending on how many teams we have so it does get us done much earlier and for the most part matches aren’t close so there has been no reason to run Bo3. It feels awesome to be done at 3pm, and it makes the schedule less of a tangled mess.

NOTE:

I do think there should be replays allowed based on robot failures baked into the rules, but something like that could potentially be gamed, so implementation needs thought out.

I do think regionals and worlds should have some sort of Bo3 for the semis onward.

I am a first year competitor and I think Bo3 should be kept in finals on regional level, semis and finals on state level, and all Bo3 in worlds after the qualifications. I have been in a regional tournament when the final was a Bo3 and I personally thought the method was superior because it showed without a doubt that the winning alliance deserved it.

As an EP and coach of 4 teams as well as doing this for 5 years, I see a benefit to a compromise that I will discuss shortly. The first and foremost complaint that the teams have given is… “Is that all”? When you get to the finals and it is over in 1 match, everyone is looking around very underwhelmed. We had all sorts of field control issues, V5 issues, and random stuff you can’t explain. I understand all the need to try to please all, but it is not realistic. At some point teams and coaches are going to cut bait or fish… In or Out. About half of my teams are seeing the downside to all of the changes and think that they will not do VEX much longer.
So here is what they say:

  • It is so unfair to have BO1 in the semi’s and finals
  • It (BO1) is underwhelming and took away the excitement of going into competition. It seems no different than qualifications and there is much more luck involved.
  • They feel like REC will not listen to them because it was forced down their throats in a rash decision. It may not have been a rash decision on their part, but it felt that way to them.
  • On numerous tournaments the students are standing around after the final match buzzer goes off looking at each other like… Is that all? What is next? That’s just not fair. Everybody has a bad match…
  • It seems really rushed and feel like cattle

You get the picture I assume.
The best compromise I see if anyone in power is reading -
Run the tournament BO1 through the quarter finals.
When semi’s roll around move to BO3. (This is optional but I like it)
Finals… BO3 (We NEED this!!!)
The major time you are eliminating with BO1 is in the round of 16 and or quarters.

I see a benefit to BO1 through a certain time frame, but after that… it just takes away the enthusiasm of some teams because of luck, lack of it, electrical issues that VEX is looking at, or field issues that people up top deny are a problem(trust me that has happened on a few occasions).

I hope we get to worlds and do BO3 in the end… compromise

As a competitor, I feel like BO1 gives an unfair advantage to what some people call team chaos, that is, the underdog. Of course, as my teammates can confirm, BO1 is why my team won finals at a competition (Alumination + 2158R vs 2158A + 59990Z) and will be at states in a month or so, but my team wouldn’t have won that match if it weren’t for a series of extremely lucky moments. Because of that, I think BO1 is not good for good teams.