Re-Visiting BO1 and BO3

Mentor since 2006, EP since 2008, current mentor of 45 VIQ and mentor of 9 VRC teams, EP for 6 VIQ events and 3 VRC events.

I love that it’s only two robot alliances, I love this move.

I’d like to keep B01 for the quad/semi finals, then B03 for finals in VRC.

I’d like to see 2 runs in the VIQ teamwork finals runs, vs the current B01.

I think that the comments that Worlds isn’t about finding the best robot come from a common belief that VEX isn’t about the robot. It’s about all of the other things that go around the robot. Design, iterations, communications, strategy, teamwork, etc. The robot is just a catalyst to enable all of the other activities.

Having said that, I like that the B01 gets events done faster, but would like the B03 to add a little last min excitement at the final. It adds about 5 mins on to the end of the day, but removes all of the equipment and field issues from the last run.

I’d like to see VIQ have two finals runs for the same reason. Depending on the depth of your field (let the top three or four alliances do a second run) you are talking about 6-7 minutes on the end of the day.

In VRC the alliance plays a few matches together before the final, so they have worked out between each other how things will work. I’d like to see that happen in VIQ.

I’m a 5th year mentor. I strongly dislike BO1 as implemented. I realize 12/16 seeds with B03 is not desirable from a time requirement. However, I believe a hybrid would be preferable. If semis and finals are both run in BO3 this only adds 3-6 matches. In all, the net effect on a well-run event should be 30 minutes or less. There’s also much greater motivation to protest calls (made or missed), if there is no second chance. I only have anecdotal evidence, but I would think it’s reasonable to believe BO1 increases this (it certainly seemed to in the 3 divisions I was watching at Worlds last year). Where this occurs the time difference would be even smaller and more competition/less standing watching kids talk to the ref.
One thing I feel is lost in B01 is that the elimination rounds are a reward for struggling through the random unseeded (and very often difficulty stacked) qualifiers. I think most competitor significantly prefer the elimination rounds over the qualifiers. Cutting this back so sharply cuts what a lot of competitors enjoy most about the event.
My final reason for preferring BO3 is that I believe that calls are missed or are wrong a significant amount of time. I don’t feel this is really the fault of the refs. I think the rules to be fully and properly applied place unrealistic expectations on what any human is capable of attending to at one time. Further, I don’t feel the rules present a clear vision for the game in some areas and with the prevalence of rules where the GDC cannot make a blank ruling; reasonable people can certainly disagree on interpretation/application in a specific situation. Respectful dispute resolution is an important life lesson but a very difficult one to master and not one that is any fun for anyone at the event. I’m not saying B03 will end all arguments but I believe that is far easier for both the competitor and ref if the call/non-call alone does not decide who advances and who’s day or even season is over.

Thank you everyone for your responses!

The common theme I’m sensing is BO1 saves time, BO3 is better at finding the best robot, and third alliances, at least in the way they were structured before, suck. A lot of people have also said that BO1 is better in the quarterfinals and BO3 is better in the closer and more competitive finals. There are a handful of people in this thread who wouldn’t agree with those statements, but for the most part that seems to be what you all are saying.

A lot of people have already proposed this (or some variant) and I want to suggest this option as something we can hopefully compromise and settle on. This isn’t going to be a perfect solution, but I believe it balances competitors’ and mentors’ needs.

At local tournaments, we continue with mostly 8 or 12 alliance brackets, running BO1 until finals, and then BO3 in finals. At States, Nationals, Worlds, and Signature Events, we run a 12 alliance bracket. 5th seed plays 12th seed, 6th plays 11th, etc, while 1st - 4th seeds get a by. These matches are all BO1. Quarterfinals can be either BO1 or BO3, and then semis and finals are BO3. This would probably add under 30 minutes to a 12 team bracket with pure BO1 and it would help keep everything more fair and less luck based. It would also increase the educational value of the program as @technik3k went into detail about.

What are everyone’s thoughts on this solution?

I am a mentor of 3 VRC teams and an EP. Here is my problem with BO1. This is basically the only close match that last years high school world champions had in all of the eliminations and the round robin. The blue alliance was a few inches away from dropping their mobile goal in ton the 20 point zone which would have tied autonomous. If autonomous had tied the blue alliance would have won the match and probably the world championship. You are telling me that you don’t think they should have had another chance at that match? If you think that saving a few minutes is worth that alliance not having a second try at that match then I just fundementlly disagree with you.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has said they want worlds to be Bo1

True but worlds isn’t the only place this happens. Finals is not always the most competitive match so a match like this shows that quarter finals should also be BO3. I hate watching teams have some robot malfunction which makes it so they don’t even have a shot a redemption. I just don’t think the small time save is worth the randomness it added.

I’ve been a proponent from the onset of at least Finals being BO3. As an EP, Mentor, and VEX U competitor, I’m still eh on BO1. I like the effect it has had on my teams to make them check everything and ensure consistency and to strive for that perfection. But I’ve also seen tournaments end on questionable or calls that I wish could get redone. For example, my #1 seed MS team played by #16 seed MS team just recently.

16 wins, but get DQed because their partner gets entangled then uses the entanglement to their advantage, preventing the other team from scoring. It was rough to see, even though it was 100% the right call. In previous years, I would’ve told both to shake it off and that there’d be another match. But alas, one went on, the other goes home.

Timewise BO1 blows it out of the water.

But it’s not much to make finals BO3, and maybe semis too.

I wish a change like that could be announced as we head towards State Championship season, but I doubt it.

It’ll be honest I’d be fine with either Bo1 or bo3 locally, but its is hard to justify bo1 when the Red alliance basically wins every match in the finals. I do think we need some kind of compromise at the regional and world championship level when teams that have a lot on the line they don’t get an unfair shake.

we’ll see I guess.

+1

As 1 year competitor (way back in Round Up) and a 6 year coach, I believe that RECF took 1 step forward and 2 step backwards when they took away 3 team alliances (which I loved) but then made all eliminations Best of 3. I feel like they should have used Best of 1 in R16’s and Qualification, while keeping Best of 3 for Semis and Finals. Teams who are that far into the tournament deserve more than one shot at beating the opposing alliances especially when equipment can fail the way it does. I hope they take a look at all of this before Worlds this season and reconsider how they structure the tournaments. It’s kind of a slap in the face of competitors to say that they aren’t looking for the best robots/teams - don’t call it a competition in that case. Yes education is first, but I can guarantee that all of these students are also doing this to at least try and win.

Many have said that they would like to see BO1 for quarters and then BO3 for semis and beyond. However, I would like to state that you can also lose in quarterfinals to stupid problems like the hundreds that have already been mentioned. If a team loses in quarterfinals because of a problem out of their control, they don’t even have the chance to compete in BO3 in which they could prove they are the best. Keeping that in mind, I think that the entire eliminations should be BO3 for states and worlds. As I stated previously, it is completely okay to have BO1 in local tournaments, but I strongly feel that states and worlds need BO3 the whole way through.

+1 with regionals you have other chances. but if a stupid random event occurs during states or worlds it will ruin your entire season.

As competitors, we would vote for the compromise or Bo3 all the way. Mainly because of the fact that towards the end, all teams deserve more than one shot and just the luck aspect. Also because of possible missed calls on the referee part.

For example, in a recent tournament were eliminated in an extremely close semifinal match. There were many debatable calls, eg: was the robot supported on the platform or was knocking caps out of field intentional. In the end, we lost by 1 point. But I feel like it really could have gone either way. If it had been Bo3 we would have had another shot at that.

@Anomaly so is what u said what’s gonna happen or is it what you want?

I want pure BO3 and maybe even BO5 for state finals and division / world finals, but I realize that some compromises have to be made :slight_smile:

I’m recommending this compromise in the hopes that the RECF will see the extreme support it’s receiving (honestly thank you guys!!) and move to BO3 for Worlds. The RECF does not plan to make any changes for states, but at least we can qualify to Worlds through signature events or skills / judging awards at states. If bad luck bites us in the butt at worlds, we’re just done.

Again, the compromise I’m proposing is exactly the same format, bo1 and all, at local tournaments, but with bo3 in the finals. At states, nationals, worlds, and signature events, I’m proposing 12 alliances of 2 teams, bo1 between the bottom 8 teams to get to quarterfinals, either bo1 or bo3 (bo3 seems like the more popular option) in quarterfinals, and then bo3 in semis and finals. It seems like most everyone is on board with this idea, or would at least prefer it to the current system.

First of all, it is great that @DanMantz is serious about collecting feedback from this thread.

I use word “feedback” a lot for a reason. If there is one thing I want students to learn it is how important “feedback loops” are in everything we do. It is the essence of the Engineering Design Process, PID, and countless other applications. They were always important in the mechanical and electric designs and understanding them is going to be even more important in the upcoming era of the Artificial Intelligence.

Let me do a very quick aside with some background information before getting back to BO1 vs BO3.

I am a strong believer in the Murphy’s and Karma conservation laws when practicing engineering.

And before anyone starts to suspect me in believing that the nature operates that way, let me say that when the humans are in the decision making loop, they could sometimes do funny probability math, which would lead to somewhat irrational results. You need another seemingly irrational set of rules to compensate for that. When effects of both are combined you get much more stable and reliable system.

When you study Engineering Systems Analysis in college they will talk about the risk assessment matrix techniques and other “boring” stuff, but when the same principles are formulated in the anthropomorphic terms of Murphy’s and Karma conservation laws they are much easier to understand and follow. Humans had evolved with the natural ability to model behavior of other human beings much better than they understand dry formulas…

To anyone who is going to study the field of Artificial Intelligence, here is the essence of the subject: You have an internal model of the outside world, you use this model to predict how external world works and to determine what action you could take to achieve your goals, then you actually act and observe the results. Based on the observations you update the internal model then repeat. The more accurate your internal model is, the better the chance is that you will achieve your goals.

In some sense internal model is nothing more than a bunch of the feedback loops and weighting coefficients used in the decision making. And if it is complex and sophisticated enough it will actively seek additional information and feedback from the external entities to constantly update and improve the model.

The mathematical foundation for Murphy’s law lies in the probability and statistics while Karma conservation law could be explained by analyzing internal model of any decision making system and how it interacts with the outside world. There is a high correlations between somebody doing something bad or stupid toward others and being on the receiving end of the Karma the next time, because if their internal model is bad enough to allow decisions negatively affecting other entities, then it is likely also not accurate enough to make a good decisions that will affect themselves.

We don’t know how VEX/IFI or RECF work internally, we could only observe what they put out (be it new products, game rules, or official communications) and see how they react or not react to the external feedback and anomalous situations. However, based on those observations you could estimate some important parameters of their inner decision making process.

Unfortunately, Static/IME issues were never resolved and then concerns about VexNet disconnects in light of BO1 change caused a lot of heated arguments. The key here is that every time we see an external entity drag their feet in acknowledging or resolving one problem, you would expect similarly slow response handling another problem, especially if they operate under increased stress. Effect of those observations multiplied by the emotional charge, associated with the subject at hand, accumulates over time and is the basis of the persistent negative opinion.

I could imagine someone will say “Look we run the Worlds with BO1 just fine, and there was no end of world as the students were whining/panicking about.” To which I will reply that you cannot know what effect it had inside the students’ minds and how much damage points VEX brand had taken as the result, especially if you seemingly keep ignoring their feedback. In fact the VRC program end goal is to transform students’ minds and not to play record number of 2v2 matches in the shortest amount of time. Having a healthy and robust system is just the means to achieve that end goal.

I am not a very objective observer here. For the last 5 years I have been emotionally invested with VRC program a lot and could only wish it to be successful.

However, if I was a total outsider and somebody gave me all the background information about the latest dynamics, my outlook would be pessimistic. Just judging by the way the feedback flows through the system it doesn’t look very healthy or stable. If there is a perfect storm of economic downturn, prolonged import tariffs, and persistent unresolved issues with V5, I wouldn’t be surprised if VEX and VRC fold in a couple of years. This is just my non-expert opinion and I sincerely wish to be wrong here, because both VRC and V5 hardware platform have some unique and exciting elements that cannot be found anywhere else. However, there are still significant risks associated with both that could result in irreversible damage if not dealt with promptly.

I am not an expert in crisis management and not in the position to give any advise, but if you accept my point of view for the rest of this post, you may gain some interesting insights or, at least, look at this from an alternative angle:

  1. Even if legal department says you should keep everything under a tight NDA, making beta program forum and user feedback closed was a mistake. If the forums were open and allowed additional external expertise, that would cost nothing extra, but could potentially help and save V5 from disastrous rollout. It is still not to late to be more open about current V5 challenges and get some advice from the community.

  2. Having beta program and then ignoring important complaints because, allegedly, it was too costly to delay production, makes very little sense. Have the risk assessment analysis been done for any of the user feedback items? In hindsight, it should be obvious that not doing proper risk assessment or not accepting its conclusions, will always cost more money in the long term.

  3. Structuring Trade-In program such that you have to send old working hardware for destruction, even before new hardware was manufactured and tested, screams panic to anyone who is even remotely familiar with Murphy’s law. And putting it in more anthropomorphic terms - all problems with V5 hardware were caused by the curse that still functional Cortex units sent back in time as they were/will be dying in the shredder. You can laugh at me all day long, but if you treat with compassion not only your fellow human beings, but also the hardware that you depend on, it will pay you back with gratitude and save your back when it will matter the most. Donate traded-in Cortex units to the schools that cannot afford new hardware and you will see your bad fortunes turn around.

  4. There have been a lot of things said about BO1 vs BO3 in this thread. There have been even more things said on the other social platforms at the time when the change was announced. Some of them I am not even going to repeat and some of them were of the kind that BO1 was done not only because EPs asked for that, but primarily to give ESPN a format that is better suited for the TV special. Whether it is true or not there is clearly a trust issue with students thinking that RECF does not have their best interest in mind. This is a very serious concern that needs to be addressed.

There is nothing wrong with repeating explicitly and frequently that RECF treats students’ concerns seriously and its primary objective is to help kids grow kind, confident, and learn the skills for the future, with everything else being the distant secondary objectives.

By the existence of this thread one would assume that RECF is already considering the idea of change to the tournament format, but the key would be to act quickly and decisively to allow States and other World Qualifiers the flexibility to apply BO3, or even recommend one of the proposed solutions as the default format. That would cost next to nothing to RECF, but could instantly repair a lot of damage dealt to VEX/VRC brand in the recent months.

I would conjecture that if BO3 is back before the next worlds qualifying event then the future of VEX/VRC brand is bright and certain, but with every event running under the strict BO1 rules, the probability of VEX going under in the next two years would increase by 1 percentage point, and if Worlds 2019 run under BO1 - by 30 percentage points. It is not an accurate metric, but it is here to illustrate the idea of how these relationships work within the systems with complex and sometimes irrational entities.

Introduction

Competitor during Clean Sweep and Round Up, mentor during Starstruck, In The Zone, and now Turning Point. Robotics Engineer.

RECF Missions Statement

The issues i have seen mentioned that really relate to RECF

BO1 vs BO3 - I believe the reasoning on implementing this was sound, in line with the RECF Mission Statement, and a reasonable compromise between EP interests and participant interests. While the program exists for the benefit of the participants, the EPs ARE necessary. The program is just as dead without EPs as without participants. There are already issues of insufficient competition slots being available for all teams to compete as much as they need to in order to improve. Reducing EP’s reduces competitions and that is bad for participants.

Official Q&A - Moving the Official Q&A to a separate location and limiting submissions has had its pros and cons. As for the large number of questions which are repeats, nonsense, or written explicitly in the rule book, i agree it is annoying that they exist, but i do honestly prefer that to the Reddit or Stack Exchange methods where asking a question requires jumping through flaming hoops and performing the ritual exactly correctly. Low barrier of entry is one of the key benefits of RECF. It will always be a balancing act between participants, volunteers, and RECF itself.

VEX Mission Statement

The issues i have seen mentioned that directly relate to VEX

Beta Transparency - Absolutely handled poorly. NDA and private forums were wildly foolish. I would love to hear what VEX hoped to accomplish with this, since their equipment is not really anything meriting corporate espionage. High school students with smart phones are able to take apart their electronics and diagnose why they are defective. Hiding the information was a poor choice.

Beta Response - If you run a beta period, get feedback, and rather than improve the product you decide to use cheaper materials and flimsier designs, you did the beta period wrong.

V5 Product Design - Some good, some bad. The interchangeable, modular gear boxes with visible color coding was absolutely the shining achievement of V5. They hit it out of the park on that. Adding the LCD to the brain and controller was a nice addition as well. The list of bad decisions, however, is extensive.

  • No ESD protection
  • Micro USB port
  • Built in legacy ports instead of modular adapter
  • Motor connector placement (had that right on 393, why take that step backward?)
  • Motor wider than standard C-Channel
  • Uncomfortable controller design (possibly to be sufficiently visually different from cortex?)
  • No release of updated sensors (line follow, button, limit switch)
  • VCS is necessary for firmware updates, but is worse than every other available 3rd party alternative
  • Firmware on batteries was not programmed to handle the two most obvious scenarios

V5 Product Rollout - Dumpster Fire. If VEX gathered the greatest and worst minds in the world and brainstormed every possible way to screw up the production and release of a new product, they still would have probably failed to come up with all the things they have dropped the ball on.

Conclusion

BO1 vs BO3 was a compromise between EP interests and participant interests. I agree with the compromise. It is not good for identifying the best robot. That is not the goal. Sorry. Instead of stepping backward on BO1, i think it would be more beneficial to step further, and split the competition into more and less competitive leagues. Those who are happy to see their robot move once the match starts, and those who are outraged that a team they consider inferior won by luck over a team they consider to be superior. The competition and RECF in general is for the benefit of the lowest 99%. If the fact that competitions are not definitively identifying the unanimously decided best robot is bothering you to such an extent, other competitions and organizations exist. FIRST, Battlebots, numerous other small local and regional competitions. Robot sumo wrestling, robot tractor pulling, underwater robotics, aerial robotics. If you do not feel you are getting any more out of RECF, then fix yourself and put yourself somewhere where you ARE getting something out of it. If everyone is being so horribly afflicted, RECF will die, and that will be a shame. If it is only an extremely vocal and stubborn minority, then they may find things that suit them better, and allow RECF to continue serving the rest according to their mission. The competitions do not exist without RECF, without EPs, without volunteers, or without participants. The participants are the focus, but their preference and desires are not the final word or the only thing that matters.

Just as an FYI, if you look at FIRST’s mission and if you talk to the FIRST leadership, they will also tell you “It’s not about the robot”.

Totally fair. I have never been involved with FIRST, or even personally known anyone who is. I imagine the same is true of most educational robotics associated with RECF.

@Robo_Eng_13 – FIRST isn’t associated with RECF other than there are lots of people like me that either have or are doing both. FIRST runs companion programs FIRST LEGO League jr for 1-3 grade, FIRST LEGO League for 3-6, FIRST Tech Challenge for 7-12 and FIRST Robotics Challenge for High School students. RECF/VEX and FIRST are equivalent in size. For what it’s worth FTC and FRC use B03. FRC has three team alliances but the three teams play at the same time (in much, much bigger field).