Robot Concept - Team 81K

[meng]

@Aditya_Narayanan

In the case that there are opposing alliance colored balls in the center goal when it is blocked off, your robot is in possession of those balls and (if there are 2) then (especially with the four bar tray design) you’re going to not be able to hold more than 1 more ball of the opposing alliance’s color.

I thought of this too.
but i think possession is only for balls that are unscored.

[Aditya_Narayanan]

I see. Thanks for pointing that out.

Regardless of possession, I just wanted to bring up the fact that taking your own balls out of play permanently might warrant thinking about when analyzing strategy with such a robot.

[weilin]

But you are not taking those balls out of play - you scoring them and, with some luck, they are permanently scored and you don’t have to worry about them being descored.

Now lets take a look at Ryan’s scenario:

@Ryan_4253B

The cage is truly an OP strategy for this game, seeing that scoring 1 diagonal and winning autonomous can grant you a guaranteed win.

If you win auton, score 3 balls in the center and cage it, and defend the other 2 goals (seeing that u have 2 bots for 2 goals, it should be easy), you will guarantee a win.

I can see some worlds level autonomous consisting a hood which go for the WP and a bot like this that score 3 balls and pre-cage center, releasing it immediately after auton

@Ryan_4253B

Win auton, 3 balls in center and 1 ball on each of the other corner, owning the goal. The opponent will still score less even if they have scored all of their balls

If there is anything close to a sure win strategy, that’s it!

Which means that if GDC rules central goal cages legal in the Official Q&A, then contesting and protecting central goal will be the most important autonomous task for any ambitious team.

I could see one of the robots oriented to, first, drop their preload into a nearest home row goal, then sprint toward central goal to score top (third) ball with their color, and positioning their cage to prevent opponents from descoring before autonomus period ends.

Their alliance partner in the mean time would work the other two goals in the home row.

If I could be certain to score top two red balls, I wouldn’t mind pushing a blue ball into the bottom of the goal and locking it there.

In fact I would even mind having two bottom balls in the central goal being blue as long as top ball is red and one of those two blue balls was descored from home row.

Then for the remainder of the game your robot and your partner could each try to take control of one of the diagonal goals and keep them fully scored.

If the center goal cage is ruled legal, then the followup question to GDC would be about the legality of the cage that stays non interactive with the goal hardware upon installation, but could deploy additional countermeasures that would make it harder, if not impossible, to remove when the opponents try to do that.

[Ryan_4253B]

I was actually able to find a counter to the strategy after coming up with it yesterday. Since you can only fully deploy the cage right after the autonomous period (stay on ur side), the opposing team can intake 3 balls as fast as possible, and place their robot in a descoring position. This way, if the opposing team drops the cage right after auton, the cage will lie above the bot, making it still able to descore. The bot will then swap the balls out in the goal and make the cage drop, making it pro your alliance.

After the auton we might be able to see some fierce fighting between the alliances, one team trying to make the goal pro your alliance and drop the goal

[weilin]

You can try to lower your cage almost to the ground, but not touching it, at the very beginning and only then drop the balls.

Then wait until the drivers period starts and drop it completely to the ground.

This could be very interesting few seconds at the beginning of the autonomous when alliances will fight for the supreme control of the central goal.

You may even see teams designing attachments to remove cages dropped by the opposing alliances and cage bots evolving to have removal resistant cages.

@Ryan_4253B you have made a very valuable strategy insight, which I hope GDC though about when they were designing the game.

[Codec]

I think the biggest problem with counter strategies is that they have to be designed for a specific cage. Not to mention might sometime require a motor to be effective. Getting under the cage, before it drops, might be the best strategy as it might not even require any changes except to the autonomous code.

Additionally my latest iteration of the cage design is to have a perfectly circular seamless plastic ring. And if possible getting wider towards the bottom. This way you wouldn’t be able to grab it with a hook, and would need a large specialized claw, unless you can somehow get your intake to grab it, and lift it.

Also being able to remove your own cage might be useful.

---

Also the Change Up Q&A is opening tomorrow and I will be ask the question about this cage so we should know the answer soon enough.

[Ryan_4253B]

It is true that the cage bot can lower the cage super low to prevent the defense bot from positioning the cage to descore, so I guess in the end, autonomous will turn into a fight on which team can be the fastest to collect 3 balls. However, I think there are a rule where you can’t obstruct the opposing alliance’s auton, so the rule might be placed to stop the cage bot from placing their cage super low

[Codec]

There is also the fact that you get a win point for completing your home row in autonomous, so some teams might just choose to do that instead locking in a definite one win point.

[Ryan_4253B]

Might be a pretty mad idea here, but I actually noticed that the autonomous home zone can be utilized by the opponent alliance too, so you can technically have a puncher to shoot the ball into the opposing home zone and obstruct their win point autonomous. Here is a possible motor distribution - 4m drive, 2m front roller, 1m conveyor, 1m puncher, passive cage. Do note that you might be DQ’d if your puncher fails.

This game actually feels a lot more interesting now as different strategies have been discovered

[JD6]

The puncher would not work in autonomous because the balls would be crossing the line. That would definitely be a violation.

[meng]

@Ryan_4253B

Might be a pretty mad idea here, but I actually noticed that the autonomous home zone can be utilized by the opponent alliance too, so you can technically have a puncher to shoot the ball into the opposing home zone and obstruct their win point autonomous.

It was mentioned before in another thread.
But most likely it will be a violation of interfering with the opponents autonomous routine.

[AL41]

“Note: The three (3) Goals contacting the Autonomous Line are not considered to be on either side, and may be utilized by either Alliance during the Autonomous Period.”
Does this mean that a neutral ball could be used to obstruct the opposing alliances home row autonomous?

[JD6]

Doubt it. Because teams have to be cognizant of other rules that apply, so using them to interfere is not going to be legal. Especially if your opponent does not attempt to use them.

[Ryan_4253B]

Nevermind, I’ve misread the rules, it was talking about the middle goals. Sorry about that

“Robots may not contact the goals that are in the opposing alliance’s Home Zones.”

[Xenon27]

if you can make your cage modular, and just attach it before finals or some other important elims match, you have the element of surprise, and your opponent’s won’t have time to properly plan against it. if you can fill up that center tower completely, and then cage it, you then only need to score and defend 2 balls in 2 corners, if you and your partner can quickly score those balls, you should be able to defend them easily. they’re corners, only one way to approach them. you simply plop yourself in front of the goal, and your opponent cannot get to them.

[DougMoyers]

@Xenon27

you simply plop yourself in front of the goal, and your opponent cannot get to them.

Unless they have short range flywheel action as an option.

[kevjar]

Yes but assuming the goal is full a fly wheel won’t do you any good

[mantoosmall]

Nah the rules state you can’t use balls to do actions which would otherwise be illegal by a robot, e.g. touching the opponents goals

[weilin]

The rules in the April Game Manual are somewhat contradictory.

<SG3> says that balls could not be used to move another ball on the opponents’ side or interfere with the path of the opposing robot, but then it says in the note that balls starting on the Autonomous Line are exempt from the rule.

So I read it as you can “accidentally” roll one of the mid-field balls to the other side and if it messes with opponent’s autonomous you are not at fault.

G10, G11, G12

<G10> Autonomous means “no humans”. During the Autonomous Period, Drive Team Members are not permitted to interact with the Robots in any way, directly or indirectly.

This could include, but is not limited to:

• Activating any controls on their VEXnet Joysticks or V5 Controllers.
• Unplugging or otherwise manually interfering with the field connection in any way.
• Triggering sensors (including the Vision Sensor) in any way, even without touching them.

Minor violations of this rule will result in a Warning. Violations of this rule that affect the outcome of the Autonomous winner or disrupt the autonomous routine of their opponent will result in the Autonomous Bonus being awarded to the opposing Alliance. Teams that receive multiple warnings may also receive a Disqualification at the Head Referee’s discretion.

<G11> All rules still apply in the Autonomous Period. Any infractions committed during the Autonomous Period that are not Match Affecting, but do affect the outcome of the Autonomous Bonus, will result in the Autonomous Bonus being automatically awarded to the opposing Alliance.

• a. Teams are responsible for the actions of their Robots at all times, including during the Autonomous Period. Any infractions committed during the Autonomous Period that are Match Affecting can result in a Disqualification, if warranted by the rule.

• b. If both Alliances cause infractions during the Autonomous Period that would have affected the outcome of the Autonomous Bonus, then no Autonomous Bonus will be awarded.

<G12> Don’t destroy other Robots. But, be prepared to encounter defense. Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or Entanglement of opposing Robots are not part of the ethos of the VEX Robotics Competition and are not allowed. If the tipping, Entanglement, or damage is ruled to be intentional or egregious, the offending Team may be Disqualification from that Match. Repeated offenses could result in Disqualification from the entirety of the competition.

• a. VEX Robotics Competition Change Up is intended to be an offensive game. Teams that partake in solely defensive or destructive strategies will not have the protections implied by <G12> (see <G13>). However, defensive play which does not involve destructive or illegal strategies is still within the spirit of this rule.

• b. VEX Robotics Competition Change Up is an interactive game. Some incidental tipping, Entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal gameplay without violation. It will be up to the head referee’s discretion whether the interaction was incidental or intentional.

• c. A Team is responsible for the actions of its Robot at all times, including the Autonomous Period. This applies both to Teams that are driving recklessly or potentially causing damage, and to Teams that drive around with a small wheel base. A Team should design its Robot such that it is not easily tipped over or damaged by minor contact.

Note: A Robot which has expanded horizontally in an effort to obstruct the field, or is legally covering the top of a Goal in a solely defensive manner, should expect vigorous interactions from opponent Robots. Damage that is caused by opponent Robots pushing, tipping, or Entangling with them would not be considered a violation of <G12>. Gratuitous damage or dangerous mechanisms may still be considered a violation of <R4>, <S1>, or <G1> at the Head Referee’s discretion.

Put simply: “wall-bots” and “cap-bots” are legal, but they are to be attempted at your own risk.

<SG2> Stay on your side in Autonomous. During the Autonomous Period, Robots may not contact the foam tiles or Balls which are on the opposing Alliance’s side of the Autonomous Line. Robots may not contact the Goals that are in the opposing Alliance’s Home Zone.

Violations of this rule will result in the Autonomous Bonus being awarded to the opposing Alliance. Intentional, strategic, or egregious violations, such as intentional contact with an opposing Robot while completely across the Autonomous Line, will result in a Disqualification.

Note: The three (3) Goals contacting the Autonomous Line are not considered to be on either side, and may be utilized by either Alliance during the Autonomous Period. If attempting to utilize these Goals, Teams should be cognizant of the possibility that opponent Robots may attempt to do the same. <SG7>, <G10>, <G11>, and <G12> will be taken into account when these types of Robot interactions occur.

<SG3> Keep Balls on your side in Autonomous. Balls that start fully on one side of the Autonomous Line may not contact the foam tiles on the opposite side of the Autonomous Line during the Autonomous Period.

Incidental violations of this rule and have no impact on the opposing Alliance will result in a Warning. Violations of this rule that affect the opposing Alliance’s autonomous routine will result in the Autonomous Bonus being awarded to the opposing Alliance. Examples of affecting the opposing Alliance could include, but are not limited to, a Ball moving another Ball or getting in the path of a Robot.

Note: Balls that start on the Autonomous Line are not included in this rule.

<SG7> Use Balls to play the game. Balls may not be used to accomplish actions that would be otherwise illegal if they were attempted by Robot mechanisms (e.g., Interfering with an opponent’s Autonomous Period per <SG2>.)

The intent of this rule is to prohibit teams from using game objects as “gloves” to loophole any rule that states “a Robot may not [do some action]”. This rule is not intended to be taken in its most extreme literal interpretation, where any interaction between a Ball and a Robot needs to be scrutinized with the same intensity as if it were a Robot.

[RoboJoe]

Nice, I really like how it has the storage in the back for enemy balls.