What would you want to see from a staff of refs this season? Either in Full Volume or OverUnder.
I’m more asking what should they do or not do, this is more than just know the rules and be certified by RECF.
very confused by this question.
Head referees must be certified and recommend their scoring referees also take the course as well.
anything else seems speculative and irrelevant to Event Partners who staff events.
For example, I would love all referees to bring me a fresh cup of coffee… Does this matter? nope, but as framed by this post is legit response.
Can you specify a bit more? 
(…confusion 
)
More looking for what the ref staff should be like on field. I understand that they should be like on field. What the refs should be aware of trying to get some insight on what not only what the EP is looking for but also the students are looking for outside the definition that RECF has put forward.
There has always been a post later in the season about missed calls or something not being payed attention to on the field (SG3 a few years back).
As a referee, I try to make sure that I’m not only thinking about the intricacies of the rules (which are extremely important, don’t get me wrong), but also about the experience of a team at an event, especially new teams. When I see a team that needs a part for example I suggest that they try asking some of the more experienced teams here in AZ that I know of if they can lend a part (they almost invariably do). I also try to make sure that any team which I have to penalize for a rules infraction understands why they were penalized and how the rule applies to them. This is one reason why it’s really nice to have multiple Head Referees for a set of fields; it gives me the time to stay behind and have a healthy discussion with a team to make sure we’re both on the same page without being pressured to move on to keep the event on time.
Overall, I try to do my best to remember my experiences with referee staff as a former VRC competitor and use those to inform how I act on the other side of those interactions now.
First of all, what the EP is looking for is adherence to the procedures spelled out in VRC Referee Guide, and Head Referee is certified having taken the VRC Head Referee Training and Certification Course. All this can be found here:
As for missed calls, there will always be complaints, as with any sport that has officials.
Read the VRC Referee Guide and come back with specific questions.
Its hard to say until we start seeing the game played. I’ve been watching all the you tube matches I can and I have a lot of questions about fringe rules. I’ve seen a lot of bad calls and flagrant violations. I wish there was a place refs could go to ask questions of each other on how certain things are going to be ruled on.
On the VEX Discord we have a channel specifically for event staff just for questions like that.
True, but that doesn’t make any such complaints automatically invalid. This is one of the reasons I make an effort to not only enforce the rules but also educate teams about the rules so that they understand why they are penalized. Over time I’ve found that teams start self-policing more when they are helped to understand the rules better. A lot of complaints about missed calls (justified or not) seem to come when a referee did not adequately explain their decision to the team.
The discord is a disorganized mess. The event sub channels are dead. The heavy moderation here is annoying but at least its organized and active.
I agree a big part of a ref’s job is to explain the rules. It’s even a stated objective for a referee to encourage participants to not break the rules. What other competition does that? Yes the referee should explain the rules but its on the students to make their case if they disagree with a ref’s call.
The event staff channel is actually pretty good (it’s the only reason I’m still in vtow). While there isn’t discussion there every day, it is far from dead. And as for moderation, the event staff channel is designed to only discuss issues pertaining to events and it stays on topic. It’s a civilized place (unlike the rest of vtow).
Yeah, I see what you guys are saying.
I would like to see a better inspection process. What I mean is that for example at my competition our coach just happened to be the one inspecting so he was VERY strict, but at worlds, there was just some random volunteer who wasn’t strict at all.
That shouldn’t happen and can happen at any event. The volunteers should be properly trained and rules consistently applied. Just because you passed inspection doesn’t mean that a ref can’t ask for a re-inspection if he sees something amiss.
My impression (perhaps wrongly) was that VTOW was “for-students-by-students” and I avoided it. Is that not the case? If so, is there a link to join, assuming it is appropriate for an adult ref?
When you whitescreen and they don’t know what it is, so you educate them, they say skill issue and you lose the match by a couple point so you drop in the rankings by 7 places.
I wish they wouldn’t do that.
The structure of a VRC event can mitigate that. There are multiple refs observing a match. You play more than one match, typically at least 6, and while a blown call hurts, it’s not necessarily fatal to your chances. You have an opportunity to lobby your peers ranked above you to select your team as an alliance partner. You can attend multiple competitions in a season.
My experience with VRC is that while there may be a decent amount of variance of experience and knowledge of VRC certified head refs (just like the variance in game knowledge of the competitors), I don’t know any that are unfair or are “out to get” specific teams or “ruin” anyone’s day. The world is imperfect, and what the refs see may be different than what a competitor sees.
There are a number of alumni and event staff in the server as well; we would love to have you join. I’m pretty sure I’m not allowed to link to outside platforms now, but google can probably help you find the server (it’s publicly visible). I also don’t want to derail this thread more, sorry about that.
I’m sorry this happened to you. For both students and referees one thing I know that helps is to be very specific and accurate with any reference to the rules. If you have an issue with a ruling, maybe give the rule another read over on the VRC hub app on your phone before talking to the referee. If you can right out of the gate point to specific language in a rule that supports your position, things will probably go a lot smoother. However, if your argument is simply “but the rules don’t let them do that!”, then it’s a lot harder to have a real discussion since nothing specific is being claimed. Whenever I have to penalize, and especially DQ, a team I will often review the exact language of the rule myself to ensure I am very precise in my reasoning to that team. I’ve heard of lots of stories of students who lost arguments even though they may have been in the right, which might have ended differently if they had been more specific and grounded in the rules.
This is also a point I try to drive home in the drivers’ meetings that I help present; I don’t just go over the broad rules that everyone has heard a million times, but also the finer and nuanced points that don’t have many words in the game manual, but can have a huge effect on gameplay. For example, I try to go over the definition of “attempting to escape” and how that relates to trapping counts.
Taking this a different way from the other posts here, at least in my state I would love to see some more ENTHUSIASM!!! We all love robotics here, (at least I hope you do), let that show a little bit, every year I get certified, and nowhere in the certification does it state that you have to be stone-faced (at least that I saw). I am not saying all refs are this way, but I definitely see a shift in the vibe of competition once the EP and Refs get more into it.
Oh I agree, we still won excellence that day and second place skills to a fantastic team (W Elliott).
They were just mean and didn’t care, they hadn’t even read the rules until a 5-minute briefing that morning then the ref certification.
I agree, and I understand they weren’t out to get anyone.
They were clearly there because they were forced too, and it made everyone’s day far harder than it should’ve been because they didn’t care.
I am very thankful for the refs and judges and all volunteers, but I wish some of them cared and weren’t just there for the hours.
We did. They looked at it, read it, then told us skill issue and basically to go away.
But anyways, I also really like it when judges give feedback on notebooks/interviews. It is some of the most helpful advice my team has ever gotten.
I want to see the same level of strictness across the board. If that means creating a better inspection tool, create a better one. (Less relying on the human )