I obviously don’t think so, but the idea first started floating in my head when someone told me the game was too big to be shipped to STL and that you needed NINE plates but only got one in the kit. I chalked it up to it being due to a creative game, which I still believe. However, it now seems like AI vision sensors will be almost required for this game as well as different motors (bc of 55w limit). There are reasonable explanations for this (drivetrain limit for more strategy, ai visions sensors for… students to start using ai??), however the game just got released and you start to wonder how the costs will add up. If a team was starting this season with let’s say 5 plates and a field, they would have to drop 600 on the elements, buy 2 more plates (probably 3 for good measure), at least 2 ai vision sensors, and a few 5.5W motors depending on how many you have. That’s quite a lot of costs just for this game. Vex has never been cheap as its product isn’t exactly a normal product and shipping it is expensive, but at this point you have to ask if this game will squeeze money out of some teams. Like I said there’s valid reasons for EVERY addition, but it’s an objective truth that teams will have to spend more for this game at this point. I like most people will pay the cost without a second thought but I think the price should at least be discussed to have some acknowledgement while avoiding the “cash grab allegations” .
I agree because my school is going to split into 3 teams. Who is going to pay for allat?
Yeah… not gonna lie, really disappointed in the gdc. This would be my senior year game, but now it feels like an abundance of limits and restrictions that make the game much less focused on driver skill. Not sure about competing or spending all the time and money for this season. Fun building challenge, sure, but not the intensity or excitement usually in a vex game. Feels like its gonna be infuriating navigating around giant pillars as to not tip them over and get a dq, and on top of that slowly lugging around singles with little fast paced gameplay. Interaction with other teams seems risky or straight up discouraged. Overall looking at a slow, auton won game here i think. Just hoped for a better one to finish on
I feel for you as my team also has a member who has this game as his senior year game, he was excited for this year as we had a very good team built, but now it doesn’t look so promising. I think you are right about auton making or breaking the game it does seem like it might be very hard to control a stack. Good luck this year and maybe VEXU is in your future.
So fair. Last season’s game was highly interactive, this season’s is not. Very solo op sounding; one scoring, one defense, all on eggshells. Cool to build, but not so much to work with in matches.
I thought this topic was a bit far fetched, but the game manual is only further evidence for this theory.
I’m not gonna lie O haven’t read the manual yet. I know they banned dyed parts but nothing else. Could you tell me what sections/parts of the manual you are referring to?
You also need to buy entirely new pneumatic systems if you’ve taken the vex branding off of them, and you’re required to use a pressure gauge.
Our vex labels on our pneumatics are just peeling off… to what extent is this enforced? The rule just says “pneumatics cannot be modified”.
This game isn’t a cash grab. It is the game manual. The game isn’t the best and I am not excited, but one of the main examples of cash grabs are license plates. A student run business was shut down just because vex wanted some extra money (custom plates are technically still allowed but not 3d printed). Another example of this is taking away colored parts. This was a cool way for teams to stand out throughout the community, and now vex has even taken that away so those students have to buy new parts. Every robot in this game will look the exact same because no cosmetics are allowed (well, no distinguishing cosmetics). A final example of this is vision sensors. Teams who don’t have them (I don’t blame them, vision sensors WERE useless) have to buy new ones. The game isn’t the problem (it is a different problem) the manual is.
Check R23f.
Decorations that cover or obscure identifying features of electronics and/or pneumatics parts are not legal […] Identifying features include, but are not limited to, VEX logos, part numbers, and other distinctive colors or features of the part that allow an inspector to easily confirm it is a legal part.
I would assume that this mandates that pneumatic devices have their original wrapping on them. R28 also does not list stripping devices as a permitted modification.
It seems like legacy pneumatics are no longer allowed either. Although we switched to the Vex pneumatic tanks, my program still uses some legacy air cylinders and connectors.
From the Game Manual - which I did read:
Note: From a rules perspective, parts found in the V5 Pneumatics Kit (276-8750) and legacy (pre-
- pneumatic parts may be used interchangeably. A Legal Pneumatics summary can be found in
the VEX Library, which includes additional pneumatics information.
Please cite the manual before posting the opposite of what the Game Manual says, or did I miss something.
I’m going to interject as a coach here. Feel free to disagree, but at least consider a different viewpoint here.
Many of the rules that students have taken issue with recently (ban on colored parts, 3d printed license plates, plastic restrictions, etc.) have come in direct response to groups taking advantage of rules. Teams were using illegal metal/parts and coloring it so that inspectors wouldn’t notice. Teams were using their license plates in ways that added a functional advantage, but in a way that inspectors couldn’t catch. Teams were fudging measurements and CAD files to go over the plastic limit without being caught. Teams are regularly loading pneumatic reservoirs beyond the required 100 psi because how are refs gonna know? The list goes on and on. If we want to demand better of someone, let’s start with our community members who have been abusing the freedoms we previously had so they could bypass long-established rules. Blaming the ones who are put in charge of addressing these infractions is not the answer.
To be clear, I’m not saying that the majority of teams are breaking rules left and right. But it is a significant enough minority of teams that the problems needed to be addressed. That’s not the GDC’s fault.
Unfortunately, the recf, AKa the robotics education and competition foundation doesn’t want to ban a certain organization, even after they straight up admitted to cheating. It is my opinion that if you state that you cheat on a public forum, it should not be considered a code of conduct violation to call you and your team out, yet adults in the community have in the past discouraged naming names in discussions of cheating.
I made that statement about legacy pneumatics not being supported because of rule “Pneumatics are Limited”. In this rule, it states “Teams may use a maximum of two (2) VEX Air Tanks (276-8749) on a Robot”.
Notice- no mention of a legacy alternative. Also-
Rule “Certain non-VEX components are allowed” does not mention legacy pneumatics.
I interpreted these two rules to mean that legacy pneumatics are no longer legal.
The article that you linked does say that legacy pneumatics are legal. I think that when the Q & A opens, someone will need to submit a question to clarify the issue
I resemble that comment. There have been instances of teams calling out the wrong teams and causing issues to innocent teams. There is a Code of Conduct report tool that teams should use instead of posting on VEXforum their grievances (which may or may not be legit).
I get the frustration, as an EP I have to handle accusations at events, and we follow protocol for the sake of students. Most G4 issues I have encountered are perception issues. Some are correct, and we work with the teams to correct their approach, and they do and grow because they are learning new things.
Hope that explains a bit about my comments on posts about team “cheating”, not a good forum to do so.
R19 and R25 were the rules I was referencing. They did not show up in my post for some reason
To be clear, I wasn’t referring to any particular organization or team, nor was I trying to avoid naming names, because I agree with you to an extent. In terms of discouraging wrong behavior, sometimes sunlight is the best disinfectant.
The only reason I didn’t mention any team specifically is because I don’t know of anyone specifically; I’ve only heard from other forum users, EP’s, other coaches, etc. that instances such as the ones I’ve mentioned have been witnessed. Even the admission you’re referring to is news to me.
I do, however, agree that caution should be taken in making accusations of cheating, especially without concrete proof. And then even with proof, there are channels for addressing those concerns.
Couldn’t have said it better. The best way to eradicate cheating is to create one or two major changes every few months and see how it works. People already talk about cheating a ton on discord and i’m tired of discussing it on here. Going back to my original topic though, money is definitely a factor when talking about some of the teams accused of cheating (though that has nothing to do with me, you, or any other EPs who try their best to follow the rules).