Forcing An Opponent Into Your Platform

In this Match, my team was intentionally pushed into the opposing teams platform while I was attempting to maneuver the field. This resulted in a 30 points being added to the other teams alliance causing them to win the match. I am just curious if the refs made the correct call here and I would also like to hear other people’s opinions on the matter.
https://youtu.be/EShErylq3ME?t=132

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This sounds like the same issue of subject in the linked topic :arrow_down:

Then here’s my post, at the bottom it talks about the same thing, so more to discuss on.

In any case, from my current understanding, this is the correct call as G13 supersedes G14. There’s been a good bit of discussion in that other topic about this along with many opinions on it. Once you check that out I think it would be great to hear your new thoughts after seeing other views.

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It looked like the call could have gone either way - 30 points awarded, or ruled that the robot-to-robot interaction actually caused the robot-to-platform contact. The Red robot had little to gain (and much to lose) from being in that position at that time. The fact that it drove so close to the platform in the last 30 seconds opened it up to a ref’s judgement call. Why put yourself in that position?

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The fact of the matter is that I had no intention of contacting the platform, however another team forced me into contacting the platform, so my team is just trying to clear things up.

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from the video it is quite difficult to tell that your robot was pushed into the platform, because of how close it was and how it was already moving in that direction when your opponent contacted you. And referees don’t have the luxury of carefully watching footage after the fact.

I don’t think the referee made objectively the wrong call, this is clearly a fuzzy area of the rules, especially when the interactions are this subtle and fast.

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I can see where your coming from, but let’s say my robot was sideways and I got pushed into the platform. Would the judges still award them the 30 points?

I think the real question is: Why put yourself in a position where your actions let the referee determine the outcome of the match?

At the end of the day, the Head Ref made a call. Re-litigating it in the forums won’t change the outcome. You can change what you do in similar situations in the future, however.

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Unfortunately there would still be a penalty, it’s any contact.

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The 30 point penalty call was warranted. You took a path between the other alliance and their platform to try and obtain a mogo. You put yourself at risk of the penalty, when you had the option of driving the long way around to make the safer play.

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here is an example of a similar situation going the other way:

the key difference here though is that 462a is clearly being pinned against the blue platform, starting from before 30 seconds but lasting into the protected time. This was a clear example of being forced into a penalty, and so blue did not receive 30 points. It didn’t particularly matter since those 30 points would not have altered the outcome of the match, but I think this is an example where <g14> still applies to <sg3>

<sg3> states that a robot contacting it’s own platform will be considered the offensive robot in an <sg3> interaction, and the robot in violation will be penalized regardless of intent, superseding <g14>. But in this interaction, the blue robot was not contacting the blue platform, so it would not receive the benefit of the doubt or be considered offensive.

the same could be said of @Julian9181’s match actually, but because the interaction was so brief, and it would be nearly impossible for any referee to be able to tell if the interaction was forced or not, the ruling as it was is a perfectly reasonable one.

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I think the refs made the correct call. I don’t like the rule, but if is fairly clear.

For the purposes of this rule, supersedes rule . Any Robot which is contacting its own Platform during the last thirty (30) seconds, provided that no other rules are being violated, will automatically receive the “benefit of the doubt”. Therefore, any contact with this Robot will be considered a violation, regardless of intent.

Since you touched the platform, you committed an SG3 violation.

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I’m not trying to change anything I’m just trying to clear it up for next time.

It looks like in this instance the blue robot was NOT contacting its own platform - therefore the blue doesn’t automatically get the “benefit of the doubt” and instead the ref needs to determine who the offensive robot is to determine who gets the “benefit of the doubt” for questionable rules violations, right?

I agree that the call was reasonable and perfectly understandable; I also think that it could have gone either way (depending on how the ref saw it). G13 may supersede G14, but here it is unclear who the offensive robot is - “generally” the blue carrying its alliance goal would be, but I think there is a (very small) case here that the red attempting to get the neutral is more offensive than the blue that pushed it into the platform. Therefore, if I were a team trying to discuss this interaction I would be trying to POLITELY convince the ref that the red is the offensive robot and to look to G14 instead. The ref has to make this call in a very short amount of time based on a very quick interaction, though, and it seems more likely that they would call it as a penalty on red.

In @Xenon27’s video, it looks much more likely to be a G14 violation. The red robot, IMO, appears to be the offensive robot; it is clearly going to get (and does appear to almost grab) the neutral goal, it is before the 30 seconds start, it is being pinned by a blue who is not touching its own platform and not carrying a goal and who appears to be pinning red to the platform intentionally.

I think the moral of the story really comes down to… for next time, try not to put yourself in a situation where this comes up. The area around the platforms is a dangerous area to be in during those last 30 seconds (or right before), especially with opponent robots around; like @9MotorGang, I don’t like the rule (at least not to the extreme that it is written as) … but it is definitely a rule, and you definitely touched the platform, and in most situations you definitely will get penalized.

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According to transative contact, which is a giant thing when dealing with the platform, yes, the blue robot was contacting it’s own platform. G13 superseeding G14 is honestly really dumb, and shouldn’t be a thing, even though I do get they want people away from the opponents platforms more than anything else.

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Here is the quote from SG3:

  1. For the purposes of this rule, contact is considered “transitive” through other Robots and Scoring Objects. For example, contacting an opposing Robot who is contacting their own Platform would be considered a violation of this rule.

I agree with @LuxembourgIsACountry

Blue is technically contacting their own platform.

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Seriously? Ick!! Well that’s even worse than I thought, if that’s the way they are calling it. I would not have thought transitive went that direction in the SG3 scenario, based on the wording of SG3a and b.

Or… does it matter in the cases referred to? SG3b does say “provided that no other rules are being violated”. If G14 is being violated, even if G13 takes precedence, it still cancels the automatic “benefit of the doubt” based on a strict reading of the rule… thoughts?

Is there a Q&A up regarding this sort of scenario by chance? (I didn’t see one addressing this.) Something along the lines of 2 pictures: 1 with blue platform - blue robot - red robot clearly labeled as "red transitive touching blue platform via blue robot, blue is contacting its own platform and gets any “benefit of the doubt” and 1 with blue platform - red robot - blue robot with a question of "yes, red is touching platform - but is blue considered as “contacting its own platform” for purposes of SG3b “benefit of the doubt”? What if the red can show that blue was violating rule G14 by pushing it into the platform; since a rule was violated wouldn’t the blue lose the automatic “benefit of the doubt”, therefore requiring ref to look to G13 and determine who offensive robot is, and if red is offensive shouldn’t it then go to G14 and say blue caused the platform touch and therefore red gets no penalty?

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It says in the rulebook that you cannot force an opponent into a penalty.

Please read through the thread before responding.

Okay sorry I misunderstood what I had read. I think you are correct.

If a rule is violated, the ‘benefit of the doubt’ should no longer be automatic…

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