Injustice in the RECF (448X)

I’m going to be honest here - I’ve heard a lot about 448X in the community, and as it stands for me, they don’t have the greatest reputation. It’s true that they probably have an amazing robot, and amazing team, but they often display a condescending and unwelcoming attitude, at least when I’ve seen their interactions. Obviously, everybody has a reason for doing everything they do, but sometimes I’m left wondering why members of your team respond the way they do.

Yes, part of this probably comes from you guys not going to worlds (whether you intended or not), but I think that in order for the community to get behind you guys, you need to make a much more compelling argument. I’m sure that the RECF has their reasons for banning, however, without us as the community knowing the whole, complete, unaltered truth from multiple perspectives, it’s always going to be difficult for us to get on your side. What allegations were made against you, when, how did they change? You should have logs of e-mails, recordings of calls, and at least some recollection of any in-person meetings. What was the RECF trying to get your school to do? They are always going to be trying to encourage education and development, why would they needlessly encourage your school to punish you? Do you really think that the value your team brings to the table is significant enough for the RECF to take time to deal with? Unless the violations were severe, RECF could care less if a salty group of students decided to quit vex, irregardless of the reason (banning, bo1, or whatever else). At the end of the day, they’re probably just trying to help, but without you telling us why, it just sounds like you’re a group of children who want somebody to blame. The lack of your team in the investigation process? Well - that’s normal. When you are suspected of cheating at school, you’re allowed to give a statement, your teacher can give a statement, but then the board makes their own investigation. Take a look at the IBO’s policy on this: https://www.aischool.net/pdfs/IBDP/Policies/Academic_Honesty_Policy.pdf.

I know that you’re only describing a fraction of your issues, but if you’re going to go this in depth, take the time to gather all the resources that you need and have before trying to present a case. You wouldn’t want to go into a fight without checking if you loaded a bullet into your gun, right now you’re saying that you have bullets, but, you could be bluffing for all we know (sorry I watched mad max we’re going to move on from gruesome movie times). Your last argument holds some value, yes, RECF is the judge, jury, and executioner, and it has to try it’s best to remain fair and equal, however, you go out on a limb when you say that the RECF abuses it’s power - you can go to another competition, you can try to go to another competition, why should you stay with vex? This is the way they want to run a competition, the same way one teacher might run one class stricter than another. They obviously want to punish those who push the boundaries - when was it ever a good idea to start pushing the law? Yes, they do benefit the general populus of students, but they don’t have to punish those who love and care about the competition. I don’t think that they’re trying to, but I think that it’s happening because of the way their roadmap happens to work out. There’s going to be upset people whichever way you swing (after all, only majority is needed to win a vote), and sometimes you might be on the wrong side of the fence, and you’ll just have to suck it up and move on. Sometimes refs make bad calls, sometimes somebody slips, and it all happens. If you want to affect change, trying to push for a petition on an online forum isn’t necessarily the best way to do it. We as a community are here to help you, so perhaps telling us who you’ve talked to, who your mentors have talked to, and how the relationships have panned out will benefit all of us.

I’ve noticed that this entire post has been changing a bit as I was writing it, that’s ok, I’ve attached a screenshot of how I viewed it - at the time it was titled “corruption in the RECF”.

I suppose. I can’t make assumptions on how hard they were arguing, or if they were being polite or not. so again, not enough facts.

I guess every team who is passionate about robotics will question the questionable call. It is not hard to comprehend if you imagine all the time and work we have put in towards the moment of the final game.

I believe the changed rhw title because they realized that is was unnecessarily inflammatory, which to me seems a valid reason.

Don’t assume that. I side with the RECF, the more reputable source, for now. Before I make a final judgement I need to see both sides.

hey now, personally I would have let it slide.
but seriously we need more evidence from both sides before we can support you.
I will trust the refc, over one team, not out of anything against you guys, but because you are coming off as angry, (perhaps righteously so, I don’t know) and are just looking for support. because asking the vex forum to support you is probably not going to get you guys to worlds. and if you truly deserved to go to world, then I’m sorry this happened to you, it must really suck. but there’s nothing we as a forum can do, and refc decisions are going to be final.

I honestly do not know how much more we can do to make our reputations better. We have hosted many scrimmages for local teams to practice; we have offered many helps for other teams; we have treated other volunteers and refs nicely with respects at all tournaments, etc.

I personally have been helped by members from other teams and have helped other teams in programming. I really cannot connect myself or my team with condescending or unwelcoming attitude.

At the California States competition, hosted at Damien High School on 3-2-19, 448X was disqualified from the finals match due to a violation of the pinning and trapping rules. After the match was over, the head ref discussed with the opposing teams and other refs on the events in the match, and then proceeded to announce and finalize the disqualification to the crowd. Our drive team was blatantly left out of the conversation, and was never consulted on the reasoning of the DQ, which is a violation of Vex’s own rules. We attempted to talk to the referees, and our entire team was eventually invited by the head ref to discuss during the awards ceremony, without the possibility of a reversal on the call. In this conversation, the RECF claims that we harassed and verbally abused the referee, when truly, all we were doing trying to understand and clarify the ruling. After the conversation was over, we accepted the match disqualification, packed up our pits, and left.

The livestream is linked below at the correct time of the event showing the referees disregard of the drive team in making this decision: - YouTube

Key Events from the Livestream:

-6:36:46-6:36:54: Alleged Pinning/Entrapment Violation (if interested).

-6:39:21-6:40:50: Head Ref confers with other referees.

-6:42:38-6:43:36: Head Ref does not allow for drive team to dispute and directly finalizes his decision (violating and the rules stated in the referee training guide) by announcing it to the crowd.

-6:44:15: Head Ref invites drive team to discuss his decision behind the other field.

On Monday, 3/4/19, within less than 48 hours of the LA State Championship, our team was notified by our RECF regional support manager, Tarek, that 448X was banned from competing in any other tournaments this season, including worlds, due to our “violation” of the rule, , and the RECF’s Code of Conduct. The alleged violations were purely based on hearsay of what we believe to be one-sided witnesses with the intentions to strike down passionate teams. Our first instinct was to appeal this decision, which we did through many emails and a phone call with Tarek.

After first being denied our appeal and being hung up on the phone, we knew that dealing with Tarek and the RECF office governing California would get us no further, which is why we contacted Dan Mantz, the CEO of the RECF. After being shut down from presenting our side of the case, we took over a week to gather and collect thirteen witness statements, which included a ref and a judge at the tournament, each confirming our behavior didn’t even come close to harassment or verbal abuse. We sent an email back to Dan with our exhibits attached, and shortly after, Dan replied, granting us a phone call to explain our side. However, Dan insisted on involving a school administrator in this phone call. After agreeing to this condition, we asked multiple times for the “overwhelming” evidence for which we were accused of. Our requests to see this supposedly hard evidence was denied multiple times, until nearly five days later, when Dan finally sent his evidence. Upon receiving the RECF’s evidence, we found false information about our team’s actions. Included in these false accusations were social media posts containing “threatening” comments which weren’t even posted by us or any of our team members.

During our conversation with Dan, our principle showed his complete support of us as a team, and believed the punishment we received was not proportionate to our actions. This support from our principle truly shocked Dan, because of the misinformation he received from Tarek and Nancy. Dan directly told us that the reason he requested school administration was because Tarek and Nancy told him that they believed our principal would be on their side and against our team. We found this particularly disturbing, as it revealed the RECF’s true intention of punishing us beyond the scope of this robotics competition.

The conversation resulted in Dan not saying his final decision, and rather putting our fate back into the hands of the California RECF, the group that was originally biased against us. The representative Dan contacted was Steve Rummel, who was told to communicate with our principal to discuss the matter and ultimately decide our fate.

This week, we were informed that our disqualification from the World Championship is being upheld–this time for a completely different reason. The RECF, once again, switched their accusation to our “overall ganging up…against the referees and the lack of recognition by the team that our behavior was not respectful”. How are we being accused of “ganging up” on the referees when our whole team was invited to discuss with the referees? We soon found out, from our principal, that Steve was in fact not the person making the final decision, but instead was Tarek, who already holds a huge bias against us from our first interaction in this process.

We felt threatened when the RECF wanted to bring in our school administrator with the potential of punishment from the school, and were disgraced at the fact that when our principle showed support for us, he was blatantly disregarded, which is clear from the upholding of our disqualification. We are ashamed to have wasted our principal’s time given that his voice was not even considered in the process even when he was invited to give his opinion.

This is the detailed version of our story, as many of you have requested.

*DISCLAIMER: Once again…please keep this conversation civil. We are not trying to incite any violence or hatred towards any parties. This is a call for change, not hate.

thank you for posting more details, will be quite helpful.

I was at LA states and here is what I saw regarding the finals match and the DQ:

After the finals match at LA state championships, the referee announced a disqualification on 448x, to the entire gymnasium, for pinning for over 5 seconds. As soon as he was done speaking, the 448 drive team went up to the referee to discuss the situation. While talking, I could see the drive team was a bit frustrated with the call, as expected, however I did not see any pointed fingers from them nor were any voices elevated. In this instance as well, the referee did invite discussion as he responded back to 448, resulting in a full conversation. As they were talking, the referee and 448 moved to the side so other awards could be handed out, which allowed more 448 members from the stands to join in on the discussion. From my perspective, from a close distance from the gathering, the conversation remained calm, and mainly consisted of 448 explaining their rebuttal to the call. I still felt as if there was no hostility or anger in the voices on any participants in this discussion. Towards the end of the discussion, the referee walked away and some members of 448 exited the field area. At that point, the other members on 448 went over to the RECF employee, Steven, who discussed the situation from his perspective and instructed the students on 448 to drop the situation and move on. Even after the whole incident, I never heard any negative or derogatory comments towards any volunteers from the event from the students on 448.

Here is a video of the conversation we had with the refs, there is no audio to the conversation, but you can see the general overtone.

can you try and give us a rough estimate of what you said when you spoke to the refs? this seems to be where the issue arose, and I don’t see evidence of disrespect. Why exactly you were called out for that, I don’t know. perhaps the refs there took offense at something not meant to be offensive.

Thanks for a slightly less bombastic post.

@Tarek_Shraibati. I know you and what I’m assuming is Nancy McLintock. I think that other people would stop posting and give you a chance to post you reasons. And while this is an open forum, and appears to be a mob, we can wait to see what’s going on. Thanks. Pinging @DanMantz and @Brad_Lauer from RECF, to post.

Torches out people, pitch forks down. Let’s see what this is. Two sides of a she said he said.

In short we tried to explain why we believed we shouldn’t be DQed. Some of the things he mentioned that were contributing factors in his decision were just wrong such as how he warned us 5 times. The ref is even supposed to keep a written record of the times they do warn a team, which we never saw, and we never even received 1 verbal warning after qual matches or elims the entire day. We were just mainly confused as to why we were being DQed especially because our offense was not match affecting. No profanity or vulgar language was used in the discussion, and we even had 3 mentors present reminding us to stay calm and respectful.

I’d like it if the refc could give us their side in this discussion. so we can all see where the dispute is.

That is one of the main issue we are facing: we don’t know what words or languages have offended the referee. None of the evidences we received from RECF can point that out for us.

From all memories that I can recollect from that day, we were asking the ref what’s the reason for the DQ from the final match since we were confused about it and we shared our understanding about the rules of the game. I can be sure that no offensive words or verbal aggressions were used during the talk. Three of our adult mentors were standing there to make sure that we were handling the issue properly.

Ok - The DQ was in fact, the right call. I’m not sure if finalists would have made it to worlds, but that DQ was justified and was the right call. I’m confused as to why the RECF would contact you on monday to ban you from further competitions. I don’t believe it was to strike down passionate teams, but you had me until you said many e-mails. Doing this would definitely not have helped - again, sending one e-mail with everything you need would probably have been a better idea.


^ screenshot above.

I think that Dan allowing you an explanation, is already quite good. I hope you understand that he may be a busy man, and might not have time to deal with all of this. As it stands, it makes sense to hand back (from Dan’s perspective) to the California RECF. Understand that within a corporate setting, they’ll generally support and trust each other more than they would a group of competitors.

Obviously, it is wrong to punish you guys beyond the scope of the competition, but having an adult moderator that’s impartial is also a good idea. I’m not trying to argue you guys, not at all. I want to support you guys, because I would not stand to have this happen in Ontario, but it’s still difficult to understand where the call to “ban” came from. Maybe we could learn from this, and Thanos EP and all start wearing bodycams from when we leave the pits, until we get back to the pits. :man_shrugging::woman_shrugging:

i’m interested in seeing what the RECF has to say. The worst possible move that they could make right now is saying nothing, and deleting everything. I hope 448X is readying their alt accounts and screenshotting all of these posts. If RECF does go silent, it means that they aren’t willing to make up their mistake, or that they continue to feel justified in what they did. If we don’t know what it is that they really did do, then we must assume that 448x has told somewhat close to the truth, which would put RECF in a very compromising position. Should they decide to come out and say what happened, that would result in less damage.

Having seen the video, I can agree that there is nothing which should have warranted a “ban”, but I still don’t see how they wanted the school to punish you. Also: a police officer isn’t going to tell a suspect that they’re about to be arrested, they just are. Obviously there is a court to go to later, however in this case, I’m not sure what there is that you can do…

could you provide us with the emails you had with the refc, if you can?

I doubt they’re allowed to

I am not sure if it’s legal to publicly share the emails. Seriously, I need to consult a lawyer before I do that.