alright, no pressure to, just something that could be useful in determining who’s in the wrong. but if you can’t then don’t
@DanMantz Please don’t let this fester like last year (62 DQ). A quick response will help a lot. On the other hand, silence will just make everything worse for everyone.
I hope 448x goes to worlds. They are a great team with a great robot. I don’t see how a disagreement of rules should ban them from worlds.
Don’t see why they have the right to take you out of worlds. You guys had already been qualified before in another tournament. This seems to be discrimination by RECF towards your team. Something should be done about this.
I was surprised to hear that 448 had been removed from worlds, they were very polite when I interacted with them at a very early season tournament in Bakersfield, even when their program was having issues.
Again, they stated their case, let’s RECF, state theirs. Brad is EDT now 1038, Dan is Central at 9:38. Need some time here.
We want to address the evidence that we received from the RECF, which affirmed their termination of our season:
-They have a statement from the head referee putting our behavior in a very negative light. However we would like to point out that there were many other referees who would take the opposite stance in believing that our actions were simply passionate, and although we seemed frustrated we did not attack anyone verbally.
-Almost all of the statements the RECF received from the event were from sources that were not close to the actual conversation that we had with the referees. We also gathered statements from sources shown in the video standing by which go against the statements we received from the RECF.
-Through the whole investigation the RECF changed its accusations towards our team, and the RECF claimed (at one point in time) that we in fact violated rule , for two reasons, we had multiple members of the team in the conversation, and our mentors were also talking to the referees. The fact is that the head referee invited our entire team to that discussion. With regards to our mentors being present, one mentor realized his mistake and quickly recused himself from the discussion, and the other one was simply there to make sure our team members actions were nothing but respectful.
Yes, but time is ticking pretty fast before worlds.
We have waited and tried to address this issue professionally for almost a month. It is more and more scary because world is coming closer and closer.
I think at this point they won’t retract their stance because too much light has been drawn to the situation, but it does show the actual value they place on the teams here at Vex. I don’t know how the whole corporate business works, who pulls the strings, etc. But I do understand that 448x has been one of the most iconic, role model type of team at vex. Starting with the early season reveal and then all the tournaments they won. It’s similar to trying to ban Lebron James from the finals during the playoffs because he yelled at a ref, sure, at most he would probably get ejected from the game, but that doesn’t mean his whole season is over. So a powerhouse team like 448x should at least get some leeway when it comes to these types of decisions. I know if I was in that situation, my reaction would not be very positive. No one is happy to lose a match of that magnitude.
Also, I don’t think these refs understand the sacrifice teams like this have made to make it to worlds. Like, sure you can present a good robot, but all the thousands of hours spent perfecting that robot only for it to be shown for a couple of hours of competition does not show justice to the vex teams dedication. Not to mention that some teams that show up to worlds really don’t deserve it (in terms of skill). Competitive regions like California should be a little more lenient. 448x clearly won the match, no doubt, if you were to punish them for verbal abuse, it would be DQing them from the STATE championship finals match, which they did. That is as salty as it gets. But to eliminate their chance at competing at the World Competition is just the wrong call.
I have known the 448x team since they originally thought of even making their own team. They love the competitive drive, the engineering behind their robots, and they loved the games. I watched the live stream live and even after the match, I was confused and had to text several members as to why they were DQ’ed. Even when directed to the timestamp as danny_bedro referenced above, I still did not understand how the opponent’s robot was not able to escape, and how 448x pinned the robot for 5 seconds.
Also, when ranOOm made a post earlier referencing the ‘many emails’ sent to the RECF, I think that danny_bedro made it seem as if they sent countless, unwarranted emails to the point of being spam. This was not the case. The emails they exchanged were cries for an answer. I am not even on the team and have heard so many different reasons as to why the RECF disqualfied 448x.
As stated above by Manaria, I don’t know if they would be allowed to post the emails exchanged between the RECF and the team members, however, if they could, it would only help prove their case and bring transparency with the claims 448x has made above.
In regards to danny_bedros most recent post, I believe that the RECF is trying to use technical rules that would never be enforced on their own to justify their wrongful disqualification. I competed in VEX for three years and have never seen the number of people speaking present speaking to a referee mentioned. So long as everyone is calm and respectful to one another, as 448x was, no one would have any issues speaking to any number of team members.
All in all, I am very disappointed in how the RECF have addressed this issue. From everything that has been said, it looks like they are afraid to admit they made a mistake. This entire investigation stemmed from a bad call, and this should not be why 448 cannot compete at the world championship.
It sickens me how poorly the RECF treat their own teams. End of the day, the RECF is hoping that this will just blow over and never see the light of day.
While the RECF can see 448x as text on a screen, writing emails, there are families behind that screen. People who dedicate months and months of time and work into developing a robot to compete for the games you create. Brushing this off as if it never happened not only hurts the people who advocate your program, but it also kills very thing you push to promote “to increase student interest and involvement in science, technology, engineering”
I agree with you it seems as though a large corporation is bullying the smaller guy once again, reminding me a lot of last years situation from the same region.
The absurdity of the idea that one person can dismiss your entire commitment to a learning program with a few words is beyond me. If we were actually calling every team out and banning them for verbal abuse and misconduct then vex would be out of business…
Every time I look at this thread I get mad because of the amount of time I spent on my bot doesn’t even compare to the amount of time other people have. I still love vex, but we need a change.
I’ve known these kids for while. Shared many designs and strategies with this team, and being at many scrimmages with them. Throughout the time I’ve known them, I have never heard of or seen any disrespect from them.
Best of luck to you guys.
When I first clicked on this thread, I was completely expecting this to be just another case of a team being mad at something unfortunately justified that happened to them. I was never the biggest fan of team 448X after they copyright struck my friend’s YouTube video of a semi-final match that happened to feature their robot, instead of just politely asking that he take the video down. I will be brutally honest in saying that, from my experience, the members that I have interacted with are not the world’s kindest individuals, which is part of the reason that I walked into this discussion already looking through tinted lenses.
That being said, I think the fact that I of all people agree that this was not only unfair, but unjustified, speaks volumes to the injustice that has been shown to exist throughout the RECF, specifically within the California region. I would tag the man himself, but I feel like it would be used against me should he feel like he wants to ban me, too, so I will refrain from doing so as other have already tagged him.
An issue occurred with the same RECF member last year, specifically dealing with the disqualification of team 62A (and to a lesser extent, 6007X). Last year’s issue with 62A was eventually resolved, which is why I hope that RECF will step up to the plate once again and correct their wrongdoings. After reading through what @danny_bedro said about his team’s experience throughout the course of these events, there is little doubt in my mind that this was simply the same individual abusing the same powers he did last year, and it is unfortunate that Dan chose to put the decision back in his hands despite having the ability to fix things himself. I understand that they are colleagues and probably know each other well, which is why it is all the more important that Dan addresses the issue himself, as it would show that it is wrong to abuse the power of being judge, jury, and executioner, regardless of your status and/or affiliation with a higher organization.
At the end of the day, I agree that we should wait for the RECF to make a statement on this issue, because it is true that this is currently a one-sided story (albeit one with a lot of support behind it). However, if the RECF does not make a statement, it is clear that they either 1) do not care enough to address the issue, or 2) believe that they can get away with it, anyway. Both of these scenarios demonstrate clear corruption within the RECF itself. No, I don’t mean injustice, I mean corruption, the original, apt title of this thread. It’s not hyperbole to say that an issue that is much bigger than the events that have occurred to 448X, an issue that has occurred over the course of multiple seasons, and an issue that leads back directly to one individual (or group of individuals), is clearly corruption.
While I have had my own share of questionable interactions with 448X, this one is clearly not on their conscience. Godspeed, and I hope to see you guys at worlds.
To the students here… for your own sake, please do watch out some of the words used.
Corruption normally involves bribery as well.
So it is very different nature from feeling injustice is being done.
A quick Google of the word ‘corruption’ returns the following definition:
corruption. dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery:
While yes, it may be true that corruption typically involves bribery, that is not always the case. The rest of it involves dishonest (such as constantly changing the accusation against a team), fraudulent conduct (such as saying that the decision ultimately lies in one individual, when in reality it still lies with the same biased individual with which it began) by someone in a position of power (such as being an RECF member where you are allowed to play the role of judge, jury, and executioner).
Yup, sounds like textbook corruption to me.
The fact that there is video evidence of the situation and eyewitnesses and we are still here having this conversation is mind-boggling. If Vex values money over Vex teams then they are still losing in this situation because 448x will draw lots of attention to the World competition regardless if they show up or not. The type of attention whether it be positive or negative is up to them.
+1000.
I would add a third possibility: that the RECF did want to address the issue, but they had some legitimate reason why they did not make a statement, and for whatever reason, they were unable to publicly reveal why they did so (at least at that time).
I’m sure they will make a statement eventually, however, and that if there has been corruption of any kind, they will eliminate the corruption if at all possible.
I think I’ll throw in a perspective that hasn’t really been discussed here. I understand that VEX means a lot to you guys, and being disqualified is a massive disappointment, especially given the circumstances. However, I would like to say that, in the long run, this is just one tiny episode in the grand scheme of things. The way I see it, saying all this is probably not going to change much; there have been longer threads on here that ended up changing nothing. And from what I hear, all of you are already graduating anyway, moving on to college and what have you. Basically, what I’m trying to say is that there’s got to be a time when you guys accept that things like this happen in life, and sometimes you just have to let it go and move on. There’s so many things worth spending time on, and this just isn’t one of them. I understand that, as painful as it is, this may not be what you want to hear right now, but I think it is something that needs to be said.