Net neutrality, and why you should care

Let’s talk public policy! (Not partisan politics—there’s a difference. ;))

Every time you browse a website, your Internet service provider (ISP) acts as an Internet “middleman”, transferring data between you and the website (in simple terms). Because all Internet data passes through the ISP, ISPs have great power over the Internet. They can see which websites you’re browsing, change loading speeds, and block individual websites.

Here are some of my responses to some arguments against net neutrality:

Net neutrality is the regulation of ISPs, not the Internet itself. With net neutrality, ISPs are treated like utility companies (electricity, water, etc.).

Users can choose to not use websites. But with limited ISP competition (some areas of the US have only one provider, like Comcast), it’s hard for consumers to avoid an ISP. In addition, consumers are already paying for Internet service, so charging consumers extra or collecting consumers’ data seems excessive.

Without net neutrality, an ISP could charge a service like Netflix for faster speeds. These prices may be passed onto the consumer. Also, smaller websites that can’t afford it will be at a disadvantage.

Without net neutrality, ISPs could slow down websites they don’t like and collect detailed browsing data about Internet users.

The Internet was designed to be a free and open place to share information without fear of censorship or surveillance. I support net neutrality, because we need an Internet where all users and websites are treated equally.

Personal opinions aside, I’m glad to see this topic here on the forum. Thanks @9065_parker and @DRow. We need more awareness and discussion on this topic (and others).

A few things:
First off I’m glad @9065_parker made this thread. I don’t understand why some people think they need to police what is and is not ok to talk about on the forum. If it’s not against the rules, which basically means it’s school/work-place appropriate, then let it be. If you don’t want to talk about something, then don’t partcipate—it’s that easy. In fact the forum even includes an ignore button, so you don’t even have to be aware of their conversation.

Second, going along with @kypyro 's point, all companies offer products/services that make sense for them financially. They balance their costs with what consumers are willing and able to pay for. ISPs want to offer plans that reflect the costs of offering internet services while catering to what consumers want. Net neutrality restricts them from doing that. If it costs the ISP more when you watch Netflix than when you read the vexforum, why shouldn’t they charge you more for it. Someone who watches a lot of Netflix might pay more, but if I only need to browse websites and occasionally download/upload a large file I could pay less.

Regarding @Aponthis & @TexasVex 's point about there only being one ISP available so they could do whatever they want. First, they already could charge you more but have decided that it doesn’t make sense to do that because they would have less customers. Getting rid of net neutrality would just allow them to charge you in different ways. Also, it’s not true that you only have one option. If you live in the boondocks then you can complain about the lack of options (although there’s still more than one). More competition among ISPs would be great. Unfortunately, like power providers, the industry is sort of a natural monopoly where it costs a lot to install the infrastructure and marginal cost is low, so efficiency improves with scale.

tl;dr neither non-robotics threads nor revised net neutrality are the end of the world.

This is a better than anything I could write on the subject: Why Net Neutrality Matters | WIRED

The greatest thing about the internet is that it is free and open. The idea of ISPs being able to restrict and slow down certain websites is a scary one. The way television works is that we have to buy packages, and we have to make trade-offs. Do we spend $5 more a month for that one channel we want in a package? And then when I occasionally turn on the TV, I find channels that I might want to watch blocked, but not worth paying more for. The whole thing is a nightmare and we don’t want to see that become how internet is run.

That’s not to mention that, for example, a service provider could buy out Hulu (currently less popular/less varied than Netflix) and absolutely ruin people’s connection to Netflix (240p with breaks every ten seconds to buffer) while prioritizing Hulu. Or, the service provider could make a deal with Hulu to make that happen. Removing the overwhelmingly-popular net neutrality regulations would allow that kind of thing to happen legally. Removing net neutrality rules opens up the door to a lot of bad situations that we don’t have to worry about right now.

There was no net neutrality 3 years ago, and the internet wasn’t a dystopia. ISPs didn’t prevent access to certain websites.

If an ISP decided to trash Netflix like that, I bet a lot of people would leave them and go somewhere else. This is how it previously worked, and how most industries work.

The greatest thing about our economy is that it’s free and open :smiley:

But that did happen, in no uncertain terms did happen . Then after netflix paid up this also happened. Not only that, but then this happened, which even though it was during fcc NN ruling, was still anti NN

A complete dearth of regulation naturally leads to consolidation and monopolies.

http://whatisnetneutrality.org/timeline

This gives an idea… Comcast started slowing down Bittorrent, and AT&T started to screw over Facetime until they got shouted down. Then lots of rulings occurred, that basically confirmed that under the current law, in 2014, fast lanes and slow lanes were legal, so new rules were needed. As a general theme, ISPs tried to shake down Netflix for money. I don’t think we should have to yell at companies every time they do something we don’t like when we could just make a rule that they can’t do it. That would be quite a bit easier.

The bigger issue to me is that public opinion is overwhelmingly on one side, and yet our lawmakers seem to be on the other. (See also: healthcare.) Of course, for anyone to be in favor, we would have to see what is actually in the bill. I love this government transparency! Drain the swamp, right?

When I first read your post, my reaction was: oh, I guess there were problems that I didn’t know about. I’m glad there was a basis for net neutrality But after reading the articles, I’m not sure what you are going for.

Perhaps you could explain, but I don’t see how the first one is relevant to net neutrality. The mobile carrier plans have data limits and Netflix decided to reduce its streaming quality to help out viewers so they don’t use up their data. What did the ISPs (or mobile carriers) do wrong?

Regarding the second one, you can correct me if I’m wrong (I very well might be) but I don’t think the FCC ever decided that zero-rating was illegal under net neutrality, so getting rid of net neutrality won’t change anything wrt that. Also, it doesn’t seem like Verizon’s video service is going anywhere, and why shouldn’t they be able to exempt their own stuff from their own data plans. Either everything counts or everything but Verizon website counts - sounds like we aren’t any worse off.

The third link is broken.

Monopolies are usually caused by regulations that prevent new businesses from entering the industry. Unless the industry is a natural monopoly, in which case it then needs regulation.

If you are saying that net neutrality started earlier than 2014-2015, then ok, fine, but the recent changes wouldn’t necessarily undo any of the earlier stuff. The big net-neutrality deal happened in 2015 just recently and that’s what the Trump admin wants to undo.

OK, these examples are relevant. However, I just don’t see that there ever was a serious problem like many would like to make it seem there will be. I’m all for better internet service - I’m just not convinced that one position or the other on net neutrality is so obviously guaranteed to lead to that.

I guess we just have different ideas on how markets should work.

Again, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think what’s going on right now has anything to do with lawmakers (ie Congress), just the FCC (ie the executive branch) - which by the way is another interesting matter. Seems to me that this should be a matter for Congress; the executive branch shouldn’t have such wide purview to change laws.

The whole problem with NN for me is whether the FCC even has the legal right to do it. Based on decisions like this, it seems to me like they don’t. However, of course I’m no lawyer so I am open to other legal arguments.

1 btw google chrome doesnt like your link, it says its being attacked

2 this is litterally the job of the Federal Comunications Commission, its in their name also who else would regulate these people other the Federal Communications Commission

??? What? The biggest monopolies (in regard to percentage of total industry) happened around 1870-1920 because of a lack of regulation. As a result, there were trustbusting efforts led by Teddy Roosevelt, in part, to break up the monopolies. (Think Standard Oil.) While I understand the argument that regulation can stymie economic growth, I think it is extremely overblown. We simply don’t see that happening very often. More often than not, regulations serve a good purpose. I’m all for cutting any regulations that serve no purpose, but more often than not it’s things like, “Hey, please don’t dump chemicals into that river. Thanks.” -The EPA.

My understanding is that companies started trying to push the limits of what they could get away with, and court rulings replied, “A lot, actually!” So then the FCC decided to take action in 2014.

I think that was because companies didn’t realize how much they could get away with. It may not be a serious issue, but it’s definitely an issue, and there’s not much of an argument on the other side. I don’t trust corporations like Comcast, because they have a legal obligation to their shareholders to squeeze as much money out of their customers as possible while offering as little as possible, if the harm to their brand isn’t more costly than the benefits. And Comcast is already so hated that there is no brand to harm, they have nothing to lose.

The FCC was already approved by the legislative branch long ago… They have the power to decide who their regulations apply to, I guess. If their actions were illegal, I’m sure there would be plenty of companies HAPPY to file suit.

Fine, I’ll rehost it.

2: “It’s the executive branch, they have the power to execute any order they wish, I mean it’s in their name!”
Not a legal argument.

To my knowledge, the FCC is given power by congress; it doesn’t have the ability to just give itself power. That’s how dictatorships arise. Extreme example I know, but still relevant.

So you’re agreeing with me - their power is derived from the legislative branch. (And the executive branch, which approved of the bill that created them. And the judicial branch, who has not challenged their existence on constitutional grounds.)

Let me rephrase that - the FCC has the authority to determine who the Federal Communications Act applies to. I said “their regulations” to mean the regulations that are relevant to their commission.

But doesn’t that court decision that I linked say that NN wasn’t covered by the FCA? Or am I totally misunderstanding it?

Oh, I agree that natural monopolies (like your examples) occur and that a good use of government is to prevent them from taking over. However, government can also cause them by creating barriers to entry (eg patents, licenses to operate transportation services, licenses to operate radio, etc). Natural monopolies are even good, but require regulation as you point out.

I would say there should be more evidence of problems before introducing regulations. You may very well be right that companies were just starting to realize what they could do and it was going to get really bad. Or maybe they were just starting to realize how they could structure plans and pricing so that services were better and cheaper for their customers. Or maybe they were about to find out that customers and websites alike weren’t going to like their new ideas and that things like fast/slow-laning and zero-rating were bad business plans. Government regulation isn’t the only answer, and I think it should only be used as a last resort after the free market has failed. I suppose, you would say that the free market already did fail, but I’m not so sure just yet.

Oh, I know the FCC’s authority is legal. I just don’t think that’s how it should work. This should have been a matter for Congress. They never should have given this much authority to the FCC in the first place - it goes beyond enforcing laws to making them.

I’ll be honest, I have no intention of reading through 36 pages of a legal document if I can avoid it (which is why I’m not intending to be a lawyer). I guarantee the FCC will be kept entirely within its legal bounds by many a well-financed team of lawyers. The term “net neutrality” wasn’t really a thing back then (hence why it is not in that document), and that ruling may have curtailed some of the FCC’s oversight but not all of it.

If you are worried about a dictatorship, I think we need to be more worried about a president who considers the press the enemy of the American people and seems more comfortable with dictators than little-d democratic allies than a group that is trying to prevent companies from giving some websites preferential treatment.

I believe there’s this thing where at first they were trying to regulate Comcast under one section of a law, and the courts said they didn’t have authority to do it that way. Later the FCC figured out how they could get the authority using a different legal argument. If you read about Title I vs Title II I think that’s the issue here.

I see what you’re saying, but I think this quote from section II supports what I am saying:
(make sure to click the little “…” to expand the quote.)

And the court eventually rejects the order.

If you have a link that relates about what you are saying, I would be happy to read it; this is a very interesting issue and I want to hear the legal argument for both sides.

As far as I can tell, there are actually a number of ongoing lawsuits from the 2015 implementation of NN.
Here are some filings:
https://www.publicknowledge.org/assets/uploads/blog/15.04.17_CenturyLink_PFR.pdf

http://www.ustelecom.org/sites/default/files/documents/2015%2004%2013%20USTelecom%20Supplemental%20Petition%20for%20Review.pdf

As for the second half of that post, I really, really, really do not want to get into a political argument. I want this to stay a legal one. I will note however that I recognized that my example was an

EDIT 1: Added the answer to @Aponthis
EDIT 2: Added clarity.

No, I have no idea. Just thought that might be the disconnect, but I trust you if you say that’s not it.

BTW, glad the vexforum can still have an intellectual discussion as this and some of the recent design/game threads show. I was starting to worry there for a while last season

I’m not saying that I am definitively correct; I am not a lawyer. I am just stating what appears to me to be the meaning of the text.